Ep. 4: Breaking Away From Tradition with Rosemary

In this episode of The Words We've Heard, host Marbree Sullivan speaks with Rosemary, who grew up in Buffalo, New York, under the watchful eye of a tight-knit, traditional Catholic, Italian-American family.

From a childhood shaped by family dinners and cultural expectations, Rosemary carved her own path—earning multiple degrees, working in education, marrying outside her culture, and ultimately embracing change in ways that would’ve surprised her younger self. Through humor, humility, and deep self-awareness, she shares the joys and challenges of being the “different” one in the family and how she navigated love, motherhood, caregiving, and personal growth over decades of change.

Rosemary’s story reminds us how much can change in one generation—and how deeply we’re shaped by those who came before us.

🎧 Key Moments in the Episode:

• [00:00:29] – Growing Up Italian American in Buffalo
• [00:05:02] – Fighting for College and Pushing Back on Expectations
• [00:10:22] – Learning to Ride a Bike... in Secret
• [00:13:11] – The Challenges of Dating Under a Watchful Eye
• [00:21:04] – A Surprise Proposal and a Martini or Two
• [00:24:29] – From Community Center to Classroom: Raising Kids While Working
• [00:30:00] – Moving Away and Balancing Guilt, Caregiving, and Independence
• [00:44:06] – Lessons Learned: You Control So Little, But You Can Choose How You React
• [00:57:37] – If You Have a Choice Between Being Right and Being Kind…

💬 If Rosemary’s story resonated with you:

• Please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
• Share this episode with a friend or loved one who values family stories.
• Follow the show to hear more reflections, life lessons, and voices of a generation worth listening to.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Marbree: Welcome to the words we've heard. This is Marbury Sullivan, and each week I sit down with a baby boomer to capture their stories, ask for a bit of advice, and hold on to the memories of the post World War II generation. Join me as we journey through everyday lives and extraordinary stories. The daughter of first generation Italian Americans who clung to their traditions.

[00:00:29] Rosemary's [00:00:30] childhood was shaped by notions that feel painfully outdated today. A lover of learning who wanted the so-called normal life. She saw around her. She rebelled in her own ways to create that life. And while she met the expectations of marriage and motherhood, she also has a master's degree, worked throughout her adult life and moved away from her hometown when opportunities arose.

[00:00:56] Able to see the humor through it all and embrace the adventure. [00:01:00] She's an inspiration and a reminder of how far we can go. If you listen to every episode of this podcast, you'll notice some timelines that tie together and stories that overlap. This will happen from time to time when both members of a married couple or friends of one another sit down with me.

[00:01:21] As everyone has the choice to use their full name, first name, or any name they'd like. And Rosemary hadn't quite decided how she'd want to be referenced when [00:01:30] we recorded. You won't hear her husband's name in this episode. I. If you hear a reference to a he or him without explanation, you can safely assume she's talking about her husband of more than 40 years.

[00:01:47] Thank you for joining me. I very much  appreciate you taking some time.  

[00:01:51] Rosemary: Oh, you're welcome. 

[00:01:52] Marbree: We're gonna jump right in chronologically. Okay. And then we will let it flow from there. Where did you grow up? 

[00:01:59] Rosemary: I grew up in [00:02:00] Buffalo, New York. 

[00:02:01] Marbree: So within the city itself? Within 

[00:02:02] Rosemary: the city itself. Oh, wow. Yeah. And. Buffalo, if you're familiar with it at all.

[00:02:08] It's divided into an Italian section, a Polish section, an Irish section, and brown Puerto Rican black. So yes, I grew up on the west side of Buffalo, which is very Italian. 

[00:02:20] Marbree: Were your family from Italy? Both sides. 

[00:02:23] Rosemary: They were first generation, but my grandparents were straight from Italy and they lived on the [00:02:30] first floor of the apartment and we were on the second floor.

[00:02:33] Marbree: Is that your mother's parents or your mother's? My mother's parents, yes. Yeah. Yeah. So was the, the building only those two apartments? Yes, it was a, it was a double home. 

[00:02:42] Rosemary: Yeah. 

[00:02:42] Marbree: So how many were you in that house? 

[00:02:44] Rosemary: Well, there was, uh, my grandmother and grandfather and my mother's oldest sister lived downstairs and upstairs there was myself and my brother and my parents.

[00:02:56] Okay. Yeah. So 

[00:02:57] Marbree: four upstairs, three downstairs. Yes. 

[00:02:59] Rosemary: Yes. [00:03:00] Had dinner together every night. Wow. Yep. 

[00:03:03] Marbree: Who did the cooking? 

[00:03:04] Rosemary: Um, my grandmother and my mother usually. 'cause my aunt worked. Okay. So, yeah. But the two of them kind of worked together and it was a full meal every single night. Wow. Yeah. 

[00:03:19] Marbree: I'm assuming it was Italian, 

[00:03:20] Rosemary: a lot of Italian food or American food with, uh, an Italian flare to it.

[00:03:25] Okay. 

[00:03:25] Marbree: Yeah. 

[00:03:26] Rosemary: Yeah. 

[00:03:27] Marbree: So what was the full meal on a weeknight? 

[00:03:29] Rosemary: Well, there were [00:03:30] certain nights. Monday was always homemade chicken noodle. Soup night with chicken, and Thursday was always a spaghetti night. Sunday was usually sauce with whether it's a different pasta lasagna or stuff like that. But we had a lot of like, um, cutlets and hardly any fish, though.

[00:03:48] That always surprises me. Interesting. Yeah. Pork chops. Yeah. Kind of stuff like that. 

[00:03:53] Marbree: Being an Italian family? 

[00:03:54] Rosemary: Catholic. Catholic? Yeah. Oh, there's tremendous guilt here. I carry [00:04:00] both Italian and Catholic. So you know, fish on fries. Oh yeah, for a while. That's true. You know? But I think it was just pasta, I don't think.

[00:04:08] Oh, really? Yeah. There must have been something that someone in the family just didn't like fish, because it would be meatless for a long time. 

[00:04:17] Marbree: Yeah. So your aunt worked, 

[00:04:18] Rosemary: my aunt 

[00:04:19] Marbree: worked. Your mother and your grandmother, did they? 

[00:04:21] Rosemary: No, my father was an old time Italian who never wanted his wife to work. Okay.

[00:04:26] She was to stay home and raise the kids. My grandparents [00:04:30] owned the house. My parents paid minimal rent to them and they were both factory workers. My aunt worked in General Motors, uh, my dad worked at Bell Arrow Systems and yeah, very blue collar. Mary boot collar. Where did you go to school? I went to a school, a small Catholic school on the west side of Buffalo.

[00:04:50] My graduating class was 40. Wow. Mm-hmm. Yep. You knew, 

[00:04:54] Marbree: I'm guessing. Then the same kids all the way from childhood. Pretty much. Were you expected or did you [00:05:00] expect to stay in in the area? 

[00:05:02] Rosemary: I was expected to, and I fought it from the very beginning. College was not something that my parents thought a woman needed.

[00:05:11] My job was just to get married and have someone take care of me. I. So that was, that was a battle. And then, but I was a good student and I was always a good student. So when graduation came about and I was like second in my class, close first, and then it was like, I wanna go to college. And then the college that [00:05:30] was offered me was a Catholic girls college, which I refused.

[00:05:33] And there was no thought of me ever leaving. I could never go away to college. That would've been, girls don't do that. So I ended up at the University of Buffalo, but my father was totally disgusted with the fact that I was going to the University of Buffalo. It was like, why would you go there? Wow. Yeah.

[00:05:48] Marbree: Did 

[00:05:49] Rosemary: you stay at home? 

[00:05:50] Marbree: I did commute to classes. Oh, 

[00:05:51] Rosemary: yeah, 

[00:05:52] Marbree: yeah, yeah. What did you study? 

[00:05:54] Rosemary: I majored in English Lit, and I had a minor in Spanish. Nice. Yeah. How's your Spanish done? Oh, [00:06:00] horrible. I think don't practice it. It leaves you. I can understand. And you know, having grown up with my grandparents living below us, I understand Italian, I just can't speak it 

[00:06:09] nice.

[00:06:09] And uh, they tell me that when I was a child I spoke it, but I think then going to school, it was always an embarrassment kind of. So you just kind of don't do it and you don't like to do it. So. 

[00:06:20] Marbree: I bet many of your classmates also spoke, whether it was Italian or or something else. Yes. Yeah, 

[00:06:25] Rosemary: a little bit. Um, I think, I'm pretty sure we were the only [00:06:30] ones though, that actually had grandparents living within the house who spoke no English at all.

[00:06:35] Marbree: That's amazing. 

[00:06:36] Rosemary: Yeah. 

[00:06:37] Marbree: What was your relationship with your aunt? 

[00:06:38] Rosemary: She was like a second mother. Yeah. Uh, I think it was. She was bossy, she was very giving. Now I shouldn't, she showered us with gifts and presents at Christmas and stuff like that. But I think because she was single and unmarried, she just took it upon herself that we were her kids too.

[00:06:56] So she didn't shy away from speaking her [00:07:00] mind and telling us how, what we should do and how we should be. So 

[00:07:03] Marbree: what did you wanna do with your academic degree? What did you wanna do with, you know, studying the English literature? 

[00:07:09] Rosemary: Initially I think I really wanted to write or, or to do something in journalism, but the times geared me toward teaching.

[00:07:17] So it was like girls teach. And so then I went on and got my degree in education and then I taught, but it was, uh, yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't encouraged growing up. Um, [00:07:30] and I, I don't mean to put a a, a gloom and doom damper over my parents 'cause they were wonderful people. They loved me, I wanted for nothing.

[00:07:36] But there was never any encouragement. Never any try, never any push. It was always, you know, why do you have to do this? You know why, you know, so it was, there was a lot of that, but that's tough. Yeah. But, but I mean, they were good people, you know, and it was, you know, where they came from. You know, you are the product of where you came from, and that's how their life was.

[00:07:58] They grew up, they got [00:08:00] married and they lived with their parents, and why couldn't I do the same? 

[00:08:07] Marbree: So when did you stop living with your parents? 

[00:08:09] Rosemary: When I got married. 

[00:08:10] Marbree: Oh, wow. I. Amazing. It is. It is. Alright, we'll we'll get to that part. Yeah. 

[00:08:16] Rosemary: But um, how was 

[00:08:16] Marbree: it dating? 

[00:08:17] Rosemary: Oh, it was horrible. 

[00:08:18] Marbree: Yeah, I would think so. It was 

[00:08:19] Rosemary: horrible.

[00:08:20] Um, never dated much in high school because it was in an all girls high school. But didn't 

[00:08:25] Marbree: they have dances or something? They 

[00:08:26] Rosemary: did, but you know, it was the strangest thing [00:08:30] because, you know, because my dad was very strict. It was almost like. You know, you're going out with a stranger. You dunno him, what, what, what, you know, you can't do this.

[00:08:42] So they were always trying to fix me up with like a, a friend's nephew or a friend's grandson or something like that, that, you know, we could. So it was always like that. But then, you know, as I refused to refuse, my dad and I locked heads a lot because I knew I couldn't leave the house [00:09:00] because it would've just been the end of the world.

[00:09:02] I mean, it was just. They would not have accepted that very well. You know, that's, yeah. But yeah, I mean, God, let's see, how old was I when. Probably 24. Uh, but I'd come home at night and he'd still be on the couch waiting for me. Wow. Yeah. 

[00:09:18] Marbree: Wow. 

[00:09:19] Rosemary: Yeah. Whether 

[00:09:20] Marbree: you were with friends or, oh, yeah. 

[00:09:22] Rosemary: Uh, both. Yeah. Oh yeah.

[00:09:25] So, you know, there was a lot of pressure in coming home and looking normal, [00:09:30] you know, not looking like you had a really good time, you know, you just had to, and, and he always had saying that nothing good ever happened after midnight, so why do you have to be out after midnight? You know, nothing ever good happens after midnight.

[00:09:42] Marbree: Yeah. What did you do for fun as a teenager? Or was it sports? Was it Oh, things with other girls? What did, what did 

[00:09:50] Rosemary: you do? Yeah. Other girls, you know, there'd be a movie, there'd be going to each other's houses. We visited each other a lot. Sports was, we [00:10:00] didn't have a gym. School. I mean, we had a room, which we had, oh, let's see.

[00:10:07] There was occasional volleyball. Um, and then there was a session of, of maybe dance, but yeah, no sports, so to speak. Yeah. So 

[00:10:16] Marbree: no physical education. None, 

[00:10:18] Rosemary: none. No, I had to fight to ride a bicycle. How 

[00:10:21] Marbree: old 

[00:10:22] Rosemary: were you when you lived? Uh, probably 12. And who taught you? Uh, I taught myself and a girl across the street who lived across the street from me.

[00:10:29] She got a [00:10:30] bike and I would go out there in like literally sneaking. And taught myself how to ride. Oh my God. Yeah. Fell a lot. Tried to hit, tried to cover up bruises. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. 

[00:10:45] Marbree: That is so nuts to me. 

[00:10:47] Rosemary: Yeah. Yeah. That's, I'm telling you, that's, that's what goes on in this head, all this, all this back drama, 

[00:10:55] Marbree: but it makes sense, you know, generationally.

[00:10:58] Yeah. With [00:11:00] grandparents coming over from Italy and Yeah. You know it all. It still just, yeah. Shocks me. Yeah. How. How far we have come. Yes. And 

[00:11:10] Rosemary: hopefully continue to go forward. 

[00:11:12] Marbree: Did you have teachers who encouraged you? 

[00:11:14] Rosemary: I had nuns, I had Sisters of St. Mary of Noir, and they were in full habit and they were very strict and we wore uniforms to school every day.

[00:11:24] And I would hope that the Sisters of today are a little kinder to children [00:11:30] than they were back then. Um, I laugh because we used to have vocational days. Like once a year. And the only vocation we were shown 

[00:11:37] Marbree: were 

[00:11:37] Rosemary: the convent and, uh, missionary work. 

[00:11:40] Marbree: Not even nursing? 

[00:11:42] Rosemary: Nope. Or 

[00:11:42] Marbree: teaching. 

[00:11:43] Rosemary: Well, you could go into nursing as a nun.

[00:11:47] There were different, uh, sectors like Sisters of St. Mary and Moore were teachers and there was another group who were nurses. So you could enter that or you could uh, or you can go become a missionary. 

[00:11:59] Marbree: [00:12:00] Only careers that further the Catholic religion are available. Yes. Yeah. Allegedly. Mm-hmm. Was there anyone in those formative years of your life who sticks out as a particular influence, good or bad?

[00:12:12] Rosemary: No. I mean, there were a few nuns who were very sweet and very nice and went in for the right reasons. There were many nuns back in the day where they would enter the convent at like 13, so they had like no life at all. So then they came to you and would. Be horrible. I mean, we used to have [00:12:30] to, we had a prom and before we went to prom, we had to bring in our dress to be approved by the nuns and Oh, all sorts of horrible warnings and stuff.

[00:12:40] And, and they couldn't relate. They couldn't relate to us. We couldn't relate to them. But yeah, so, so there was. Those nuns were the, probably the worst, the ones who had entered at such a young age and knew nothing else. Some, especially like in my high school year, we were getting younger nuns who came in, you know, after high school, maybe even [00:13:00] some after college who were a little bit more worldly and a little bit more understanding.

[00:13:04] Yeah. 

[00:13:05] Marbree: All right. So live at home. Mm-hmm. To get to college. Yes. Your dating life is seriously curtailed. 

[00:13:11] Rosemary: Yes. 

[00:13:12] Marbree: Can only imagine your social life on the whole being. Fairly sheltered by necessity. 

[00:13:18] Rosemary: Yes. Because there was a fear, you know, you, there was still that fear that you didn't wanna upset your parents, you know, you didn't want to, so, yeah.

[00:13:26] Marbree: Well, and you're still living under their roof. Yeah. 

[00:13:27] Rosemary: So they would know. Yeah. Yep. And as [00:13:30] long as you live under my roof, you live under my rules. Right. But if you leave, you know, there's no alternative there either. 

[00:13:40] Marbree: When did your, your first serious relationship. 

[00:13:43] Rosemary: Um, probably when I first started to work, um, when I got outta college, I graduated in the seventies, which everybody in the world was looking for a teaching job, so it was not easy to get a teaching job in Buffalo.

[00:13:57] Marbree: Okay. And you had, um, backing up a little bit, sorry. So after [00:14:00] you finished the undergraduate right, did you then go on to a master's? Yes. 

[00:14:04] Rosemary: Okay. Education. That was in education. Okay. Yeah. And that, so that was also in 

[00:14:07] Marbree: Buffalo? 

[00:14:07] Rosemary: Yes. Yeah, same school. Okay. In Buffalo being a very democratic city. Um, I was told that in order to get a job that I should volunteer at Democratic headquarters in order to get a job.

[00:14:21] So I, I went and did my due diligence. I made phone calls and I opened envelopes and sent envelopes out and did all that. And [00:14:30] during that period of time, I was given a job. I was rewarded by being given a job at a community center and I was a grant writer. So once I got there, then I started to meet more people and then I started to date more.

[00:14:46] And um, my relationships never got, I mean, they were serious, but I don't think in those days there was still a lot of guilt in a lot of things going on [00:15:00] in your head. And so it was cautious dating even though oftentimes emotionally I got very connected. Physically, no. And 

[00:15:10] Marbree: at some point you met someone who became your husband?

[00:15:12] Yes. 

[00:15:13] Rosemary: Yeah. And it was through Democratic headquarters. Actually. Tell 

[00:15:16] Marbree: me the 

[00:15:16] Rosemary: story, please. Okay. Very strange. Um, 

[00:15:19] Marbree: and how old were you ish? 

[00:15:22] Rosemary: 23, 24. Okay. Yeah, he had just come from Syracuse and was. Given a position with a [00:15:30] restaurant in Buffalo, which failed. So then he was out of a job, so he too was told that he should volunteer at Democratic headquarters.

[00:15:37] So he was running a phone bank, of which I attended. And, uh, we met there. And the best thing about working with Democratic headquarters was that every night with a party, because after everybody worked, everybody went out and everybody partied. And so it became one of these events, uh, after the phone bank and everything, we went to a party and, um.

[00:15:57] God, there was a judge there who was just [00:16:00] bothering the heck outta me and he was married, and so actually he came over and rescued me and we went over and had a drink and exchanged numbers, and that's how I met him. 

[00:16:10] Marbree: How long before you met your parents? 

[00:16:12] Rosemary: Well, probably, probably about six months. Yeah. Did they know you were dating someone?

[00:16:17] No. No. And in fact, in the beginning, our relationship was kind of not really committal for a while. And then when he finally did ask me out, [00:16:30] then he came to the house and that was. He actually showed up on the wrong night, but I was so thrilled that he asked me out 'cause I was really smitten. 

[00:16:40] Marbree: How was it with him meeting your parents?

[00:16:42] Rosemary: He was much more accepting than I, I thought he would be. Um. Again, my parents were very blue collar and I mean nice people, very welcoming. My dad was okay, um, always, always kind of suspicious, but you know, he shows up in his khaki [00:17:00] pants and his pink shirt and his navy blue blazer. Um, it was a little, you know, I mean, I think part of them were impressed by him, but he accepted it all without judgment.

[00:17:12] And I often say to him, now it's. Why didn't you just run for the hills? If I would've come into a situation like that, I would've just run. His argument is that he was hungry and there was good food at my house, so he said no matter what time he came or whatever, there was always food. So [00:17:30] 

[00:17:30] Marbree: yeah, I suspect there were other reasons.

[00:17:35] So were you still only working with the Democratic Party or were you teaching? 

[00:17:38] Rosemary: No, I was still working at the community center. I was doing grant writing for a long time. Yeah. You did eventually teach. Yes, I did. I did that for a long time and uh, you know, I got, at the time I, you know, they kept on promoting me and promoting me, so I was making just such great money, which now we look back and thought, oh my God, that wasn't even minimum wage.[00:18:00] 

[00:18:01] Marbree: But your living costs were low. They 

[00:18:02] Rosemary: were 

[00:18:02] Marbree: low. How long was your engagement? 

[00:18:04] Rosemary: It was wasn't that long. We, we got engaged in, well, I guess it is long under these, we got engaged in August and we got married in March. Okay. 

[00:18:13] Marbree: Yeah, 

[00:18:14] Rosemary: not too bad. 

[00:18:15] Marbree: Is that a good engagement story? 

[00:18:17] Rosemary: Uh, only the two families meeting, which was always this waspy family from Pennsylvania came to visit my Italian family.

[00:18:26] And, uh, so it was, it was interesting. [00:18:30] Um. But they all got along. They were fine. I think his mother must have been shaking her head thinking, what in God's name has he done? But it all worked out. Were your grandparents still alive? My grandmother was not my grandfather, but my grandmother was. Yeah. My grandmother kept on trying to find some kind of something that would make him Italian.

[00:18:50] Did he change his name? Could it have been something else? Yeah. Did she speak any 

[00:18:57] Marbree: English by that point? No. 

[00:18:59] Rosemary: No. She never even [00:19:00] tried? No. Wow. She was, uh, she was very content speaking her language. Uh, my mother and her sister, I. Did all the grocery shopping, did all the, you know, errands, took her to doctors, did stuff like that.

[00:19:12] So never left it. 

[00:19:14] Marbree: All right. So you get married and then you're allowed to move into house? Yes. That's good. Yes. Yes. So the house is obviously also in Buffalo. 

[00:19:21] Rosemary: Yes. 

[00:19:22] Marbree: How 

[00:19:22] Rosemary: far away? Uh, well, we went from the west side to the north side, so we were probably 20 minutes away, half hour away. [00:19:30] 

[00:19:30] Marbree: Yeah. 

[00:19:30] Rosemary: And 

[00:19:30] Marbree: were you both working at this point?

[00:19:32] Yes. 

[00:19:32] Rosemary: So he worked at City Hall and I worked at a community center that was probably 10 minutes away from City Hall. We were both in Right in downtown Buffalo. 

[00:19:40] Marbree: What did you two do for fun before you had kids? 

[00:19:42] Rosemary: Well, we had kids. Um, well there was never tons of money, but we had, we had loads of friends. So there was lots of socializing and lots of parties going on and yeah, we had, we had a large group of friends, especially working at Democratic headquarters, you met a ton of people, so there was a [00:20:00] lot of that.

[00:20:00] Um, we ran for a while. We did a lot of five Ks. I tried, I. Um, road bikes. Um, he played volleyball, I watched, um, and just kind of normal young people, stuff that, yeah, yeah. 

[00:20:16] Marbree: When did you start having kids? That makes it sound like you had a whole lot of 'em, which I Yeah. 

[00:20:20] Rosemary: No, it was, we were probably married four years, and in the beginning he, it was, well because of a.

[00:20:26] His past relationship. I mean, first of all, when we [00:20:30] met he told me straight out, I never wanna get married again and I don't wanna have kids. And I was like, okay. You know, and I was extremely smitten by the time. So that was, it was something that I. A future that I couldn't imagine not having him in my future.

[00:20:46] I don't think I had enough of myself at that point to say, well, that might not be what I want. But as time went on, you know, and, and we had been married four years and it just kinda evolved and suddenly it was like, yeah, I think we do want a family. [00:21:00] And, and like I said, getting married, that was a major thing when he asked me to marry him.

[00:21:04] 'cause I never thought that was gonna happen, but credit that to her. Birthday and a lot of martinis. Oh, there's a story there. Detail. No, it was, uh, you know, like I said, for the longest time he was never gonna get married. Never gonna get married. And then, uh, it was his birthday and I took him out for dinner and he was having a great time.

[00:21:25] But the more he drank, the more he loved me.[00:21:30] 

[00:21:31] And he actually. That night proposed and I said, please, no, we're not doing this. You are like, loaded. This isn't gonna happen tonight. I said, just forget it. And he goes, no, no, no. I mean it, I mean it. So he took his, he always used to wear a Syracuse ring and he goes, this is how much this ring. This ring means so much to me.

[00:21:48] So he gave me his ring and he said. I will promise I will replace it. And I thought, we'll talk about this in the morning, 'cause I'm not even sure you're gonna remember any of this, so we'll, we'll be gone with this. [00:22:00] And I got home and all of a sudden the phone rings. And in those days he had a landline, you know?

[00:22:05] So I run to the phone so that I don't wake anybody up. And he told me he had just called his mother. Told his mother that we were getting married and I was like, oh my God, what have you done? You know, this is really something you should have thought about. But he did, and the next day he came over and I thought for sure he was gonna like reneg on the whole thing, but he [00:22:30] just, he did ask for his ring back and promised me he would replace it and I gave it back.

[00:22:34] I said, no, I understand totally. You know. But, um, then probably about two weeks later, he, he gave me my engagement ring. 

[00:22:43] Marbree: When did your parents find out? 

[00:22:44] Rosemary: After I got my engagement ring. Okay. Yeah. I came home and yeah. Did you 

[00:22:49] Marbree: stay quiet for two weeks? 

[00:22:50] Rosemary: I did, and I think for the most, 'cause I was still wasn't sure and I think for the most part, I don't ever think that [00:23:00] they thought that.

[00:23:03] He was going to propose that it was just, first of all, we had dated for quite a long time, which you don't usually do because we probably dated for at least three years, two, three years. And that was like, you know, what's he doing? Does he want, you know, does he wanna marry you? Or you know, and then there was always, you know, you don't, don't buy the cow if you give away the milk, you know?

[00:23:24] Right. And, um, yeah. So, but they were happy, I [00:23:30] think. But I, I don't know how, how confident they were that it was all gonna work out. But yeah, they, it all worked out and like I said, then they grew to love him and, and luckily he's got a great sense of humor, which carries you through life. Yes. Humor is an enormous part of life.

[00:23:48] Marbree: Yes. 

[00:23:48] Rosemary: Yeah. 

[00:23:49] Marbree: All right, so then you're married for four-ish years. Mm-hmm. And you have your first child. Yes. And then you start teaching. 

[00:23:57] Rosemary: Well, no, I was still working at the community center, went [00:24:00] back to work at the community center, and then when I got pregnant with my second child, um, when I was working at the community center, I used to drop my oldest child off with my mother every day.

[00:24:10] And that was getting to be really old and I really didn't like how things were going on that end. And the things that she was doing bothered me a little bit. So I kept on, I just. Wanted to stay home desperately to do it my way. So after I had my second child, um, I said, you know, I just wanna stay home now for a while.

[00:24:29] So I did, and I [00:24:30] stayed home until my second child went to kindergarten. And then when he went to kindergarten, I. That's when I found a job. Why 

[00:24:37] Marbree: did you start teaching? 

[00:24:38] Rosemary: Actually, I was doing English as a second language. Did you like that? I did. I did. I was impressed by the students who come from different countries because they tried so hard and they worked so hard, and I think it was much harder than our lovely American students did.

[00:24:55] I did that for a long time. I did that probably [00:25:00] until probably, I wanna say 12 years. 12 or 13 years. 

[00:25:05] Marbree: Yeah. So basically through your entire Yeah. Children's upbringing. Yes. Yes. So you had the help of your mother Certainly when, when you have at least one child. Yes. Which was both good and bad. Yes. It sounds like.

[00:25:17] And then was your family sort of still on the periphery and around as you were raising both parents? Always. Yeah. 

[00:25:24] Rosemary: Yeah, always. Um, my parents actually, once my grandmother died, my parents bought their dream home [00:25:30] in the outer ring suburb of Buffalo. And it was just a very simple cape, but they'd never had their own home.

[00:25:36] And this was like huge. And my dad was like, thrilled. Um, but unfortunately. A year later he got very, very sick. And, uh, so, you know, he never got to enjoy it to its fullest. So yeah, he passed away at 62. I mean, he was very young. Yeah. Yeah. It was, uh, it was form of Lou GEs disease. Oh 

[00:25:55] Marbree: yeah. Yeah. So he at least met his grandson.

[00:25:58] Rosemary: He did. [00:26:00] Um, he met my brother had two daughters, and, uh, his daughter was. Probably the youngest. Um, and she was probably about six months and our youngest was about a year. So he met them, but you know, he couldn't hold them at that point, you know? It was, it was sad. Yeah. Yes. I'm sorry. 

[00:26:17] Marbree: Yeah. Thanks. Was your mother around though?

[00:26:20] Rosemary: She was, yeah, she was. She would. Loved to come over and babysit. She loved to do that kind of stuff, and she, she was all about that, and she, she still, [00:26:30] that was probably the hardest part though, is because she, she still wanted like the Sunday dinners every week and stuff like that. And, and as the kids started to get involved and stuff, it got harder and harder.

[00:26:41] So she always felt like, you know, nobody wants to come over here anymore. Nobody wants to do this. So that caused a lot of strife in for a while, but. Aunt. My aunt actually got married. Did she? She did. Which is a whole nother story because my aunt who worked at the factory met a [00:27:00] guy in the factory, nicest man in the world, but not Italian.

[00:27:04] She was living my grandmother. She was still with my grandmother in the apartment and downstairs, and she brought him over to meet and my grandmother. Hated him. Hated him right off the bat. She was so jealous that her daughter would leave her to go marry this man. There was no, I'm happy for you. You have a life.

[00:27:24] Go move on. None of that. So they actually ended up [00:27:30] getting married, but she didn't speak to my grandmother for years. My grandmother wanted nothing to do with her. Didn't wanna mention her name. Nothing had nothing to do with her. My aunt would come over, my grandmother would lock the door. She wouldn't let her in.

[00:27:43] I mean, she just totally disowned her. 

[00:27:45] Marbree: This is the stuff of television shows. Yes. The stereotypes of Italian. 

[00:27:49] Rosemary: It's It truly is. It truly is. Wow. And uh, it all passed unbelievably because my dad one day said to my grandmother that we're going for a [00:28:00] ride and he took her over to my aunt's house. And she was forced to go in and see it.

[00:28:06] She was miserable for a while, but at least they started to talk again, and as time went on it, it passed. And, uh, you know, my, my aunt always took care of her and took her to doctor's appointments and, you know, always tried very hard to mend the relationship. Yeah. Yeah. But it was always, yeah. It was like, you know, you're supposed to take care of me.

[00:28:26] You're not gonna go get married,[00:28:30] 

[00:28:30] Marbree: and here you are having gone off. Oh yeah. Degree. Yeah. Also married to non Italian. Yes, 

[00:28:35] Rosemary: yes. Yeah. Terrible 

[00:28:36] Marbree: granddaughter. 

[00:28:37] Rosemary: Awful. Awful. They needless to say they liked my brother a lot better than me because they always thought he followed more of the norms. You know? He was, you know, I was different, right?

[00:28:50] Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I put a mind of your own. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was hard, and believe me, it wasn't much of a rebellion. It was just wanting to live a normal life, you [00:29:00] know? Yes. A normal 

[00:29:00] Marbree: life of a different. Era. 

[00:29:02] Rosemary: Yes. And 

[00:29:02] Marbree: what they, what they knew. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so now Siri, that means through your, before we get to the, the move out of Buffalo.

[00:29:09] Mm-hmm. While the kids are growing up, you are working, your husband's working, you've got extended family in the area. Yeah. You've got all of your lifelong friends. Yes. Presumably, or not all, or some moved away, but a good number Yes. That has the potential to be a very busy life. 

[00:29:25] Rosemary: Yeah. It was. Was it tough?

[00:29:28] It was, it was busy. It was [00:29:30] tough, but it was wonderful, you know, and I, I always, um, I treasure those times because, you know, it's, you have history with people and that's very special, you know, and, and I, watching other kids grow up and, and then watching these kids now still be friends and stuff like that.

[00:29:45] So, yeah, it was, it was busy. Uh, but it was good. And, you know, the kids were always involved in all sorts of sports, so that provided a whole social life in itself for us. You know, meeting parents, doing travel team stuff and all that stuff. So it was [00:30:00] fun. Yeah. 

[00:30:00] Marbree: Yeah. Yeah. Did you care for your mother as she was getting older?

[00:30:04] Rosemary: I did. Um, well, what happened was we, we had moved away and that did not sit well. Um, again, there was no good luck. So happy for you. New job. There was. Well, that's the end of the family. It's gone. You're gone. That's the end. Um, both kids had gone away to college, so we moved to Cincinnati and one son had actually a hard time, uh, moving away and, [00:30:30] which really surprised me because he was the most independent of all of 'em.

[00:30:33] But like he says, he had always had his group of friends. He was much more social, and now he had been separated from them. He had a girlfriend still in Buffalo, so the draw was still coming back. So my mother would lay a lot of guilt on the fact that I left him that, you know, you should be here, he needs you, you know, that type of stuff.

[00:30:53] So that was hard. Um, so we lived there for three years and then [00:31:00] he got transferred again, which my mother thought we were gypsies and we moved to, um, Maryland, and then we were in Maryland for a while. When we were in Maryland, my mother started to really have issues, um, just forgetting things and, and my brother had very little patience with her.

[00:31:18] My brother's wife had very little patience with her. I tried. And then when we got the offer to come back to Buffalo, I. We just felt like it was the right time and I tried to take care of her. She lived alone for a long time. My mother was a very [00:31:30] social person. She loved going out, loved to party, loved to do things, and she was like a cat on a hot tin roof.

[00:31:37] If she was home for a day, it was like, well, what am I gonna do? You know? Aren't you coming over? You know? So there was a lot of that. And then she actually met a gentleman friend, which worked out wonderfully. Because he was very much like her and liked to go out and do a lot of things. So that lasted, ooh, probably almost 10 years, I think, maybe.

[00:31:57] And then he got sick. But my mother [00:32:00] was, she was not gonna take care of him because, no, why should she take care of 'em? They're not married. So, uh, so he went into a home. She was alone for probably a couple more years after that, but then she was getting lost. People next door would call and say they smelled the gas.

[00:32:18] Uh, calls from friends that would say, you know, your mother's not right. You know, she just, she can't remember where things are. And, and her answer to all that was to, she should come live with me. That would've [00:32:30] been a nightmare. It would've just been a nightmare. And I couldn't explain that to her. So, um, I found an assisted living place for her, which was.

[00:32:37] Lovely. I thought, uh, lots of activities, which I thought she would love, but just she hated it. Hated it, hated it. And every time I would go, like after work, almost every day, but every time I got there, half the time she wouldn't remember that I was there the day before, but when she was angry that she was there, she would introduce me as the daughter that had a big house.

[00:32:56] That she couldn't live with. That's how I was [00:33:00] introduced. I nurse that Italian. Yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so that was hard. And she stayed in the home almost two years. And then, uh, I went to visit her one day and she was just, hadn't gotten out of bed and she was just so whack out and so called an ambulance.

[00:33:15] And then she never came out of the hospital after that. And then, uh, yeah. So how old were you? Oh, maybe 58, 59. Yeah. 

[00:33:24] Marbree: His. 

[00:33:26] Rosemary: Yeah, but a lot was going on during that 

[00:33:29] Marbree: period [00:33:30] though, 

[00:33:30] while trying to care for her mother. Rosemary was also navigating a difficult situation unfolding in one of her children's lives.

[00:33:38] We talked about balancing one's own life. With caring for generations on either side. Dementia's bad. 

[00:33:44] Rosemary: Yeah, 

[00:33:46] Marbree: it's hard to do. 

[00:33:46] Rosemary: Crazy, you know, I guess it's either you fail physically or you fail mentally, I guess. And honestly, I think it would be almost easier physically because. The [00:34:00] woman that she became, it's like it's a stranger.

[00:34:03] It really is, you know, very, very hostile, very nasty, very mean, saying horrible things. Um, yeah. It, it just, and, and it's a shame to have those memories. 

[00:34:13] Marbree: Yeah. 

[00:34:13] Rosemary: Um, but you know, I mean, you reason it all out and say nobody can help it and you just hope to God that you don't go that route. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it's.

[00:34:23] Marbree: Yeah. Yeah. That's tough. Do you have any advice for somebody who's in that age of [00:34:30] life when they're juggling both up and down? Yeah. And so when you were at a almost an older age and that you were dealing with a grown child who was going through some difficult life things Yeah. While you're dealing at the same time with your own mother's dementia and the advice you'd give to somebody, and not necessarily the exact same sort of 

[00:34:48] Rosemary: Right.

[00:34:50] You know, I think, and again, I am a perfect candidate for guilt. And I think, 'cause I have a friend who lives here actually, who's kind of doing that now. [00:35:00] Um, it's easy to carry this guilt constantly. And it's, it's something that my mother would always say to me when she'd get angry. She'd say, well, your time's coming.

[00:35:10] This is gonna happen to you too. Your time is coming. And I would always say to her, I know my time is coming. But it's not now. And I think that's the thing. You have to come to terms with the fact that this is your time. And it may seem extremely selfish, but it's the only time you're gonna have. So if you need to visit your [00:35:30] kids or if you need to do something for yourself, then you need to do it because time is short and you've got that window.

[00:35:36] So 

[00:35:37] again, 

[00:35:37] it may sound selfish, I don't know, but you shouldn't carry that guilt. You should just say you had your time. This is my time. And we had, I mean, stupid things like, I mean, you know, kids' weddings and, and it's like, I couldn't take her because it would, I couldn't have had a good time because she wouldn't have left my side.

[00:35:56] She won't sleep alone, you know? I mean, it was just [00:36:00] so, it was like, no, you can't come. But I thought, this is my son's wedding. I want it to be special. I don't wanna have this memory. There were some people, which she would remind me that their kids would've done it, and they probably would've. But it, it wasn't me.

[00:36:14] No, 

[00:36:14] Marbree: you were never 

[00:36:15] Rosemary: No, I was different.

[00:36:20] I was different. Yeah. 

[00:36:22] Marbree: That's very good advice. You said, you know, you'd go visit her after work. Yes. So at that point, what were you doing for work? 

[00:36:29] Rosemary: Oh, that's when I was [00:36:30] teaching. Yeah. So my, yeah, I, I was at, at, uh, elementary school. Okay. Yeah. And, uh, I would get out of work, I'd probably leave around three 30, go visit her till five, and then go home and have dinner and.

[00:36:44] And I, I probably was there. I mean, I didn't entertain her enough when I was there, but I'd sit with her, tried to make friends with her, and she didn't wanna make friends, though. She was, those weren't her people. Yeah. Tough. Did you like teaching? I did. I liked the kids. I loved [00:37:00] kids and I enjoyed every minute of it.

[00:37:02] Had a story to tell every day. Um, and yeah, I did, you know, the, the other minutia that goes along with it is, gets tiring, but the kids are great. You know, they were always fun. They were always exciting, even the challenging ones. Yeah. And, and when I was in Ohio, I actually taught nursery school for a while and tons of stories there, but it was fun.

[00:37:23] Have 

[00:37:23] Marbree: you. Former student contact you? 

[00:37:26] Rosemary: Yes. Um, mostly when I was in Buffalo, not so much [00:37:30] anymore, but yeah, when we were in Buffalo and we would run into a lot of them because we all lived in the same neighborhood as a school. So it was like you went to the grocery store and suddenly your cashier was now your former student, you know?

[00:37:42] So yeah. Yeah, that it was good. Living in the neighborhood got to be difficult at times because you're grilling outside and it's like, okay, could you put the beer away? We've got kids coming, you know? You know, going by, hi, [00:38:00] 

[00:38:00] Marbree: yes, that's backyard is a good thing. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Or some good, you know, bushes, bushes or something.

[00:38:06] Yes. That 

[00:38:08] Rosemary: else. You're at the grocery store and you've 

[00:38:09] Marbree: got two cases of beer in your cart and it's like, oh, we're giving a party. So you moved to Ohio? Yeah. At that point the kids were outta the house. They graduated? Yes. Okay. Yeah. How was that having always lived in Buffalo? How was it moving? 

[00:38:24] Rosemary: It was hard.

[00:38:25] Moving's very hard. Um, you know, part of it was exciting and [00:38:30] we're, you know, a new chapter of your life, but it's hard to meet people when you don't have kids to introduce you to people. You know, you don't have your schools, you don't have this. Neighbors were, we were in a nice neighborhood. Our neighbors were very, very nice.

[00:38:43] But it was hard. And honestly, my biggest challenge was not having GPS at the time because I am so directionally challenged. And so I, I, now, I look back and think, God, if I had GPS, it would've opened up a whole new world to me. So. So I, I did [00:39:00] feel a little bit bound, not reaching out a whole lot, not venturing out to look at things or go places because I was so directionally challenged.

[00:39:11] Marbree: Did you manage to make friends? 

[00:39:12] Rosemary: Yeah. Yeah, I did. And, and it's when actually I, I taught in the nursery school, so I met people there. It was a different, different community than I was used to, even though, um, it was very, uh, conservative. Um, one instance was that bush that was coming. [00:39:30] Town at the time. And one of my neighbors called and said, do you wanna go see President Bush?

[00:39:34] And it was my only day off from work and I said, you know, I don't think so. And she said to me, oh, you must be a Democrat. And I didn't say anything just, and I always thought you were such a nice person.

[00:39:49] Wow. Yeah. Yeah. But very conservative, uh, very, um, they were friendly, but they didn't make you a part of things. If you weren't from Cincinnati then, I mean, [00:40:00] these were people who had gone to high school together very much, uh, associated with their high schools as opposed to their colleges. Okay. You know, and so they were like, and they couldn't imagine why anyone would leave Cincinnati or anybody.

[00:40:13] Would not wanna come because it's just, it was a perfect place to live. So, yeah. So that was, they were very conservative and, and I say if anything, that was probably the hardest thing. 'cause some of the things that they would say would just shock me to death. Yeah. My one neighbor took me over one day and she had [00:40:30] daughters, uh, two daughters and two sons, no, two, three daughters and one son, and her daughter was at Toledo.

[00:40:35] And uh, my name was not Italian. As far as she knew. And she said to me, you know, my daughter's coming home this weekend and she's bringing a boy. And I said, oh, really? And she goes, yeah. She goes, he's, and I said, oh, really? And she said, oh, she doesn't know what she's getting into. I mean, they're just so different.

[00:40:55] And I didn't say a word, but I went home and I said, yeah, that was pretty interesting today. [00:41:00] But very conservative, well known for not saying. Yeah. Yeah. Very well. I needed friends. Yeah. I didn't Did she ever find out? I don't think she did. No. I don't think she did. Yeah. But it was, yeah, but that's how they thought.

[00:41:15] Yeah. Someone told me, I ran into somebody when I first moved there and she, I was walking and this lady was from New Jersey. And she, uh, she said to me, you know, where are you from? And told her, and she goes, well, she goes, welcome to be 20 years behind the Times [00:41:30] here. Oh, geez. Yeah. So, okay. Yeah, 

[00:41:32] Marbree: yeah. And then, but you only there for three years?

[00:41:35] Yes. Okay. So then it was Maryland 

[00:41:37] Rosemary: and it was Maryland. Marilyn was very, very nice. I felt happy for him 'cause it was probably the closest he's ever lifted. Family. So we were only two hours away from his family and he went to visit his mom a lot and stuff like that. So that was nice. He loved working in Washington.

[00:41:51] It was very exciting. Uh, I did not work in Maryland 'cause I knew it was gonna be short lived and I get horribly attached to things. Every time I [00:42:00] commit myself, when I leave, I cry. You know, I mean, it just, every move is very traumatic for me. So I just thought, this is gonna be short-lived. There was a lot of pressure to be perfect in Washington and, and a lot of demands from very wealthy people who weren't very nice at times and could say horrible things because they were better than you.

[00:42:18] So, yeah, so that, I knew that was gonna work. And then, like I said, it, he came home one night and said, I've gotta get outta here. I can't stay here. And then we went on the hunt and we actually, [00:42:30] we were interviewed by a headhunter in Chattanooga, Tennessee. So we went to Chattanooga, Tennessee, and that was probably the one place where I said to him.

[00:42:38] I cannot live here. You could get a beautiful home up in the mountains, which were gorgeous, and I possibly could have done it if the job didn't entail him traveling all week. And I thought, what am I gonna do up in these mountains in Chattanooga, Tennessee with the closest city Atlanta? I couldn't do it.

[00:42:55] Yeah. So I said, that was the only time I, I actually said, no, I can't do this. And that's when [00:43:00] we ended up coming back to Buffalo. You started teaching again in Buffalo? Yeah, I did. That was elementary school again. Yeah. Different district, but same. 

[00:43:07] Marbree: And. 

[00:43:10] Rosemary: Yes. Okay. Yeah, then it, I never thought Florida was gonna be the answer, though.

[00:43:14] Not in a million years, but he fell in love with it. He, he loves the heat, loves the sun. And, uh, I, I wasn't sure we, we looked at North Carolina for a while 'cause I thought, well, at least we'd be closer to one Sun. You know, it'd be, we'd be near somebody. [00:43:30] Um, but it wasn't hot enough. And, uh. And then it was the old, you don't follow your kids.

[00:43:35] You never know what your kids are doing anyway, so you know, you have to find a place that's good for you. Um, the appeal of this place actually was knowing people, you know, we had a friend unit here that made it easier and more, more able to, you know, feel some kind of comfort in knowing that there was somebody here or something.

[00:43:53] But, but yeah, I, uh, yeah, I, it's a different place. 

[00:43:58] Marbree: We're. [00:44:00] Life. Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:03] Rosemary: Life. 

[00:44:03] Marbree: What are some of the most valuable lessons you've learned? 

[00:44:06] Rosemary: That you control so little. You have this vision in life, that you're in charge, that you can direct things exactly the way you want to, and in reality, you're here for the ride and it's how you react to things more than how you direct them.

[00:44:22] Marbree: How did your life turn out differently from what you might've envisioned? 

[00:44:25] Rosemary: Um, probably it's better in many [00:44:30] ways. Um, much, many, many more adventures than I ever thought I would have, and that's because of him. I would kind of like to be closer to family. Um, I would, I. Love to be around my grandkids. I would love to have that.

[00:44:44] Um, you know, maybe someday it'll still be in the chart, I don't know. But, but right now, no. 

[00:44:49] Marbree: Yeah. 

[00:44:50] Rosemary: But that's probably the only difference. But again, no regrets and, and honestly, uh, you know, it's, it's a double-edged sword because yes, I would love to be there, but yet they've got [00:45:00] their own lives too, and I can't impose on their lives.

[00:45:02] And I don't want to impose on their lives because I've had that. And, and honestly, that's the one thing I always try to remember is all the things that bothered me. And I say to myself, I never wanna do that to my kids. I never wanna do it to. So I, I, I have to keep myself in check and balance. Quite frequently to make sure that I'm not doing those things.

[00:45:22] And, uh, but no, it's, it's been good. There's been lots of adventures. I've seen more things than I ever thought I would see. Like [00:45:30] what? Just moving. I never thought we'd be moving around and, and it was only those couple of times, um, you know, trips we've taken. I mean, we've gone to some great places and I enjoy that and it's.

[00:45:43] I, I guess my reach would've been much shorter, I think. But I don't demand a lot. I don't need a lot, you know, I just is, but I'm grateful for what we had. 

[00:45:53] Marbree: As you look back, can you think of any moments in life that at the time seemed mundane, [00:46:00] routine, but the reality is there were a major turning point.

[00:46:03] Rosemary: Well, I think oftentimes like when you get into a job, sometimes it can get that way. Um, yet when I look back now, I mean each and every year was a growing experience. You know, it's like even though you think you're doing same old, same old, you know, your interaction with people, uh, I don't know if that makes sense.

[00:46:26] Yeah, 

[00:46:27] Marbree: it does. Who would you say are a [00:46:30] of people that have had the most. 

[00:46:34] Rosemary: Let's see. When I first started to work, there was a woman I worked with who was older and we used to eat lunch together, and her words of wisdom still stick with me to this day. Every now and then she'd come up with something that, you know, trying to tell me to, you know, even though we were running around with the kids and we were doing this, and she would always say, it's the best time of your life.

[00:46:56] It's just the best time of your life. Look at it that way. And [00:47:00] I'd say, and she would be one to say too, that if I forgot something, like I'd say, oh, I'm so sorry, I forgot your birthday or something like that. We were running around. She goes, Nope. She goes, don't say you're sorry. It's great. It's good that you're busy.

[00:47:11] It's good that you're doing stuff like that. So, I mean, she was somebody I think of often. Um, definitely my husband. I mean, he changed my life totally. Um, my kids, my kids are good people. I am fortunate enough to say I really like them. They turned out to be really good people with good [00:47:30] hearts. Um, and other than that, just, I don't know, I, I, I didn't have a lot, I had a lot of friends, close friends.

[00:47:38] I guess I'm kind of a cautious person in that sense. I don't bring a whole lot of people too close, so I don't, I never had the besties. Um, but yeah, 

[00:47:48] Marbree: that's a concept. I think that mostly exists in tv, film. 

[00:47:51] Rosemary: Yeah. Yeah, probably, probably. I'm sure there's somebody who I really admired. My [00:48:00] husband mother was pretty amazing person.

[00:48:01] She raised her kids all by herself, lost her husband at a very young age, and. She was a very strong woman. She told you the way it was. Um, but she was able to have the admiration of three kids who she raised and raised well, and uh, and never really asked much from anybody. She really didn't. I dunno. 

[00:48:22] Marbree: No, that's good.

[00:48:23] That's, that's a good answer. Sure. Of course. Your life. Are there activities, hobbies, habits? Things that you've [00:48:30] enjoyed for a long time? 

[00:48:32] Rosemary: For a long time, no. That's the, that's part of the adventure because I was denied so much with doing things that now learning new things is truly wonderful. That's the one good thing about living in a good climate.

[00:48:46] I love to play golf even though I'm not great, but I'm okay with it. I'm good with it. It's a, it's a new adventure. So all these things that we do, it's kind of like fun 'cause it's all. All being learned, but growing up I read a [00:49:00] lot, you know, always walked, uh, ran a little bit. Not so much anymore, but, uh, I did a lot of outdoor stuff.

[00:49:07] Yeah. The, the rest of the time was just working. 

[00:49:10] Marbree: Was there outdoor stuff that you did with the 

[00:49:12] Rosemary: kids? Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's sports. They always, 

[00:49:16] Marbree: yeah. You 

[00:49:16] Rosemary: know, they played hockey, they played lacrosse, they played baseball, so that was always. As far as, oh, we skied, we did ski for a while before hockey, then hockey took over our lives, 

[00:49:27] Marbree: uh, downhill or cross country Downhill in upstate New York.[00:49:30] 

[00:49:30] Yep. Yeah. Holiday Valley. Uh, yeah. Are there any, any things that you'd love to still pick up? Do you wanna get your Spanish back? 

[00:49:37] Rosemary: Yeah, I wouldn't mind doing that. I, I, you know, and I, I really love school. So I would, yeah, I wouldn't mind doing that again. I often think that I wish I could go back and really appreciate it now and kind of like study the things that you'd want to study.

[00:49:53] Um, because you know, that's the one thing in life that I just think at [00:50:00] 18. You don't realize the gift you're given, and I, I don't think you, you reach, you know, you strive to reach your potential and there's so much more that now I wish I would've gone back and done. Um, like what? Like what? I, I don't think I would've taught.

[00:50:16] I would've, but I think I would've studied law. Yeah. Yeah. I think I would've done something like that. Um, yeah. 'cause I, I mean, I. I did. I could have stayed in college forever. I could have stayed in school forever. I had no desire to leave. [00:50:30] I liked my classes, I liked my instructors. You know, I just, yeah, I was good with coming home and doing homework and all that stuff, you know?

[00:50:37] I mean, I was all good with that. 

[00:50:39] Marbree: Have you taken any online classes? I have 

[00:50:41] Rosemary: not in recent years. No, I have 

[00:50:42] Marbree: not. Why not? 

[00:50:44] Rosemary: There's 

[00:50:45] Marbree: so many out there. Yeah, I probably should.

[00:50:51] You worked with, what was her? She was a colleague? Yes. Was she a boss or just a colleague? 

[00:50:56] Rosemary: Just a colleague, 

[00:50:57] Marbree: yeah. Yeah. 

[00:50:57] Rosemary: She was an older Jewish lady [00:51:00] and her husband was dying and so she would leave work every day. And he was a little of her life. And, um, she would go to the hospital all the time and she'd come back and, and that's why I think she would always say, you know, just appreciate what you have and, 

[00:51:14] Marbree: you know, 

[00:51:14] Rosemary: just enjoy it.

[00:51:15] And, and, uh, she was a, a very heavy set lady. She said that her husband always made her feel so beautiful and he would always tell her how beautiful she was. But I think the one thing that stuck with me more than anything else, and you know, when it was [00:51:30] getting really, really dark and she knew he was gonna pass, but she said, you know, we all know we have to die.

[00:51:37] But she said, the hard part is what we have to go through to get there. Hmm. And those words, I always think of her and think how true they are. Yeah, yeah. Lucky to 

[00:51:48] Marbree: come in contact with somebody like that. 

[00:51:50] Rosemary: Yeah. In those, 

[00:51:51] Marbree: those early adult years. 

[00:51:52] Rosemary: Yes. Yeah. 'cause I was young and my kids were young and Yeah.

[00:51:56] Marbree: Yeah. 

[00:51:56] Rosemary: Yeah. 

[00:51:57] Marbree: Are there any words of, of wisdom or [00:52:00] advice that you've received in life that that stuck with you? 

[00:52:03] Rosemary: I think it's just a control thing, you know? I mean, I think that, uh, you know, we, we, we foolishly think we have more control over our lives than we do. And I think, you know, you, you want to say, you know, live every day, you know, and don't worry about the tomorrows, um.

[00:52:21] It is in my nature to be a worrier though, and I think that's the hardest thing that I have to keep on reminding myself. My husband used to [00:52:30] call my father Dr. Doom, and I was the daughter of Dr. Doom. There was always a dark cloud. So I think that's kind of the thing that I struggle with is like even in the happiest time at, I'm waiting for the next shoe to drop.

[00:52:43] So I have to get past that. So I, that's kind of something that I try and remind myself of all the time that it's like it's. It's hard, um, because I, I had a friend who said that for my father, living was an occasion for death. So, [00:53:00] you know, and I mean, I think, I think it's hard to, that's ingrained in me, so I have to fight that on a regular basis.

[00:53:06] Just to get past that. 

[00:53:08] Marbree: What do you remember, Cuban missile Crisis? 

[00:53:11] Rosemary: Crisis? Scary. Um, yeah, I think that was probably the closest we ever thought we were, we were going to go to war. And we grew up in a time that we still had our World War II veterans, and we always knew how bad that it was and that it [00:53:30] wasn't gonna happen again.

[00:53:31] We couldn't let it happen again. So yeah, it was, it was a scary time. 

[00:53:35] Marbree: How was 

[00:53:35] Rosemary: it 

[00:53:35] Marbree: with your. 

[00:53:37] Rosemary: They were oblivious to it. Were they? Yeah. Yeah, they were. They were pretty oblivious to it. 

[00:53:41] Marbree: Did you have parents or aunts or uncles who actually served in World War ii? My dad. Your dad 

[00:53:47] Rosemary: did? Yeah. Yeah, my dad did. My uncle served in the Korean War.

[00:53:50] Mm-hmm. I had, oh my, my father's two brothers 

[00:53:52] Marbree: all were in World War ii. Yeah. You grew up in the Italian Catholic family and you went to a Catholic girl [00:54:00] school. Yes. With a uniform. Did you know girls who disappeared for a year? You know, to go visit a, a relative or something, because. 

[00:54:12] Rosemary: I had a horrible story, if you wanna hear it.

[00:54:14] Yeah. I was very, very close to a, a girl who we were about as close as best friends could be, um, and nice family. She had two older sisters and these girls were, they were gorgeous. They were so pretty. Her middle [00:54:30] sister had dated a boy all through high school and she was pretty, and he was. He was like very handsome and just, they were the cutest couple.

[00:54:38] And one day my friend totally embarrassed, said, you know, my sister's pregnant and we were freshmen. Her sister was a junior. We had religion class in the morning. That was the first class every day at nine o'clock in the morning. And the nun. Who was giving us religion class said she had announcement to make that.

[00:54:58] She said one of the students in this school is [00:55:00] pregnant. And I could watch my friend who sat in front of me 'cause we were in rows at the time, and her shoulders just like went down. She goes, I want you all to know that there's a special pit in hell waiting for her. There's a special pit in hell for people who commit sins of the body.

[00:55:16] And I just thought that was the most cruel, horrible. Terrible thing to say, but her sister did not come back to school for a year and she did end up marrying this young man. I think her [00:55:30] father insisted upon it. So they did get married, they had a little boy. Um, they were together for a while and then they split up and I don't know, I think still think from what I had heard recently, the last time I was back in, they're kind of back and forth.

[00:55:44] They have ties, but yes, it was a horrible, horrible thing to do. You didn't do it to your parents, you didn't do it to anybody, and, and there'd be a special pit in hell waiting for you. 

[00:55:53] Marbree: Was there ever commentary about a. 

[00:55:56] Rosemary: No, no, no. It's just, I think that's the biggest [00:56:00] issue I have with things that are happening presently, not to bring that up, is that I just feel women are just getting the short end of the stick once again, and men are going to determine exactly what path their lives are gonna take.

[00:56:14] And it's like everything you fought for in the seventies is gone and it's the hardest part to come to terms with, you know, I, I look at my little granddaughter there and think. God, how awful. What kind of a world is she gonna grow up in? Yeah. 

[00:56:27] Marbree: Yeah. Did that knowledge that [00:56:30] there's a special place in hell mm-hmm.

[00:56:31] For those women, um, and or legality of birth control, the concept of it, any of those things, did that shape your life and your decisions? 

[00:56:41] Rosemary: Oh, sure. Yeah. I, I think our generation grew up with the fear of getting pregnant. You just did not wanna do that. That was like the biggest humiliation in the world, and it was all the woman, I mean, it boy could just walk away.

[00:56:53] Um, so yes, birth control made a big difference in your life, but again, it was something you had to [00:57:00] sneak. I mean, when you're of age, you can go to a gynecologist and you can get it, but you can't tell anybody you're on it. That's what always amazes me. Now, when. I like our one niece, you know, as soon as her daughter was 16, she took her to the doctor's and got her birth control.

[00:57:14] And it seems also normal now, but in those days it was like, no. But yeah, it did shape your life. 'cause it, it opened up, gave you a little more freedom without the worry that you would be totally shunned and humiliated and, 

[00:57:27] Marbree: yeah. 

[00:57:28] Rosemary: Different world. 

[00:57:29] Marbree: Yeah. [00:57:30] If you had all the world's attention for up to one minute, what would you say that you would love people to take to heart?

[00:57:37] Rosemary: There's a book called Wonder, and in the book it says, if you have a choice between being right and being kind, choose kindness. And I think that that's what our world lacks. I think people need to be kind to each other again. 

[00:57:54] Marbree: Do more. Yeah. 

[00:57:55] Rosemary: Thank you. Oh, 

[00:57:56] Marbree: thank you,[00:58:00] 

[00:58:00] Rosemary. Thank you for sharing your story and your wisdom. Our conversation shows how much has changed in just one generation, and I thank you for the reminder of how easy it can be to cut through negativity with laughter. To those of you listening, thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed this, please leave a review in Spotify or Apple Podcasts and hit that follow button.

[00:58:28] These things help others find the [00:58:30] podcast and they mean the world to me. Share this with anyone you think would love it or learn something from it and keep coming back for more of the words we've heard. This podcast would not be possible without the editing and production brilliance of Corey orac. The inspiration of my parents.

[00:58:47] At a 2001 conversation with my grandmother, my thanks to you all.

[00:58:55] So what are the words we've heard? A great sense of [00:59:00] humor can carry you through. We control so little. You may think you're in charge, but really we're all here for the ride. It's how you react more than what you direct those busy adult years. Treasure them. This is your time.