Ep. 8: Single-Parenthood, Loss, and Resilience with Kris

In a more personal episode of The Words We’ve Heard, host Marbree Sullivan sits down with Kris, who shares her story with remarkable honesty, insight, and heart. From growing up in a small town in upstate New York to becoming a single mother at 19, through finding a career as an adult, fifty years of marriage and unthinkable loss, Kris’s journey is filled with pivotal moments, some painful, some joyful, and all transformative.

Kris shares the challenges of being a young mother in a judgmental era, the decision that changed everything, how she built her life with resilience, the support of family and friends, and the importance of respect. She speaks candidly about her marriage of over 50 years, raising a daughter as a teenager, her career path, and the enduring grief of losing a child.

This conversation explores generational expectations, the cost of shame, the power of community, and the unexpected paths we take to become the people we were always meant to be.

 Key Moments in the Episode:

• [00:00:12] – Childhood Memories, Family Dynamics, and Walking to School
  
  
• [00:06:40] – Becoming a Single Mother at 19 After a Family Rift
  
  
• [00:10:57] – Facing Shame, Choosing to Keep Her Daughter, and Finding Support
  
  
• [00:19:00] – Building a Life: Work, Resilience, and Finding Her Voice
  
  
• [00:23:00] – Meeting Bill, Marriage, and 50 Years of Learning Together
  
  
• [00:30:23] – Going Back to School and Earning a Master’s Degree at 39
  
  
• [00:33:00] – Social Work, Purpose, and the Lessons of Working in Pediatrics
  
  
• [00:43:16] – Reflecting on Regrets, Parenting, and the Loss of Her Daughter
  
  
• [00:57:20] – Words to the World: Kindness, Friendship, and Living Fully

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Marbree: Welcome to the words we've heard. This is Marbree Sullivan, and each week I sit down with a baby boomer to capture their stories, ask for a bit of advice, and hold on to the memories of the post World War II generation. Join me as we journey through everyday lives and extraordinary stories

[00:00:24] from choosing to raise a child at a time when single parenthood was shameful to starting a career at 40, holding on to friends through multiple moves and the unthinkable loss of losing a child. Kris Montgomery's story is about the importance of family and friendship, the reality of grief and challenge, and a reminder that through it all, we can live and love.

[00:00:53] I. Until the discussion you're about to hear. I knew very little of Kris, and I'm honored that [00:01:00] she sat down and spoke with me. The wisdom she shares in her words and her story is layered and rich. And before we dive in, I want to thank and appreciate Kris for the candor and composure with which she shared her story.

[00:01:17] She is truly remarkable.

[00:01:24] Chris, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate you making some time. 

[00:01:28] Kris: Thank you, Marbree. 

[00:01:29] Marbree: So jumping right into your childhood, when you think about it, what images come to mind? 

[00:01:36] Kris: Oh wow. Well, I grew up in a family with four kids. I was the youngest of four and we're 44 months and four kids.

[00:01:44] Think about that for a minute. Um, that is really close in age and, you know, it's after World War ii. Um, my father was a veteran and, um, we lived on a street that had scales of kids, which was not [00:02:00] unusual after World War II, people came home and had 3, 4, 5, 6, you know, whatever kids. So when you stepped outta your house.

[00:02:07] To the street. There was just automatically people there, you know, to kids there and that sort of thing to run around and play. Um, I was the smallest, so, you know, they just would use me 'cause I could run fast, but they wouldn't want me to hit a ball or anything like that 'cause I couldn't hit very far.

[00:02:21] But it still was a good memory of being able to just run around. And your parents weren't worried about where you were or anything like that? That was pretty typical I think back then. 'cause now we all live in the burbs and not everybody's right. Next to each other and stuff. Kids. 

[00:02:34] Yeah. 

[00:02:34] Um, so I remember that fondly.

[00:02:35] And I walked to school every day from kindergarten till I was in high school, which back then was 10, 11, 12. So till 10th grade because, um, you could, and then the high school was on the other side of the town from where I lived, so I had to take a bus at that time, which was fine, you know, it was what I, I was excited to be in high school.

[00:02:53] And, but we also lived on the side of town that everybody was kind of middle class or lower middle class. And the other side of town was the [00:03:00] wealthier kids. When you get to high school, you know, you wanna fit in and in high school, you know, if you have money and you have whatever, you're a little more well known and everything.

[00:03:08] So I didn't have that. Um, my mother always worked and office kind of work, and they owned a business for a short time. And then my father was a probation officer, so we always had food on the table. We're never poor, anything like that, lots of family. Um, and so I just remember holidays being full of love and life and.

[00:03:27] I wasn't a good student, I was just, okay. Um, my parents were good people, but I maybe overwhelmed with their own lives or whatever, and they never paid any attention to, did you have homework? How were your grades? How were, you know, you, you had to manage on your own. And if I didn't do well in school, I, I don't remember.

[00:03:45] Remember looking at a report card. Looking back, I think I wish they'd been more involved in, in our academics. So like what we were doing and what we might like to do. But of course there was three girls and one boy and the girls we were gonna grow up and get married, or we were gonna grow up [00:04:00] and be a secretary, or there was no opportunity for thinking that you could go to college or you could be something else, but that, um, but at the time, that's what I knew and I never thought I was smart.

[00:04:12] So I have a little bit of regrets about that. Um, not regrets, but I'm aware of it. I'm, aware how it affected my life. 

[00:04:18] Marbree: Yeah. Did either of your parents attend college or any kind of post high school education? Yeah, my father did. My father, 

[00:04:24] Kris: yeah, my father did. Um, he went to St. Lawrence University, um, after the war, which was a huge deal in his family because his father came from Italy when my grandfather was about 16 years old.

[00:04:34] He came over by himself and, um, came to Watertown, New York. Well, I first went to New York, New York City, and I think worked for the railroad and then ended up in Watertown, New York, and he owned a grocery store and they had an arranged marriage. My grandparents, my paternal grandparents, she was quite a bit younger than him, maybe eight, nine years.

[00:04:52] And I never saw any happiness. It's like. It was just, she was kind of this, sadly, I look back on it now as an adult and I'm thinking she probably [00:05:00] was like clinically depressed. I was just like, she never, never seemed happy. So my father grew up and he was the oldest in a very athletic, strong, funny, you know, intelligent guy and had some severe injuries in the war.

[00:05:14] Um, had uh, two purple hearts and it go, it was the time that it was, you know, years later when you realize what these. Guys, especially the guys went through and they never talked about it, you know, so he was just as, you know, getting outta the military at 20 years old or whatever he was when the war ended, or, well actually it was injury is what knocked him out, the second one.

[00:05:34] And so he felt so grateful, but nobody in his family went to college. Nobody in my mother's family, my mother was an only child, but you know, she didn't go to college. Um, and so it was a huge deal for him to do that. And, uh, and they got married while he was still in college, had three kids while he was in college.

[00:05:51] Um, and, and then I was born like a year and a half or something after that year, whatever it was. And when I think about, I'm thinking how [00:06:00] overwhelming that must have felt. But when they talk about those times, they lived in something at St. Lawrence called Vet's Village. So many, many veterans who went to college.

[00:06:10] Were married and maybe had children and that sort of thing. They all lived there and they had next to nothing. But my mother talks about, had always talked about that in a very fond way of how they got together and they shared meals and things like that 'cause nobody had any money or, you know, you weren't like outdoor restaurants and outdoor bars and things like that.

[00:06:27] So my father was always very, I was always very proud of him that he went to college, but he was also the oldest in, in this family and more determined, I guess, than anybody else to, to do this and had an opportunity to do it where it was paid for. 

[00:06:40] Yeah. 

[00:06:40] But nobody else in my family, out of the four kids, my four kids in my family, I'm the only one who has a college education.

[00:06:47] And um, and I didn't get that until I was, how old was I? Was I 39? Or I forget. Yeah, 39, I think 38 or 39 when I got my master's degree. But I never thought I was smart enough to go to college, nor did [00:07:00] I know what I would do if I went to college. Like what's the point in going to college and. So being a single parent at 19, you're not going to college.

[00:07:09] You're, you're getting a job and you're, you know, doing what you gotta do. 

[00:07:12] Marbree: All right. We, we might go back to some more childhood, but since you've brought it up, let's, let's jump right into, uh, becoming a single parent at, at 19. When did you graduate high school? When you were how old? I was 18 and then still living at home when you graduated.

[00:07:25] Oh, yeah. 

[00:07:25] Kris: Oh yeah, yeah. Um, and I worked at, uh, Dixie Lee Fried Chicken the summer after I graduated. You know, like a, just a chicken place, you know, kind of, I wanted to make enough money. My sister was getting married in August and I wanted to have enough money to, uh, buy, still looking for a permanent job. I was looking for something, just enough money to get through the summer and pay for the wedding and stuff and everything.

[00:07:47] And then, and then that fall, you know, I started looking for work and eventually I did get work at a, at a bank. I worked at as a mortgage teller at a bank. In Watertown, which I really a respect. 

[00:07:58] Marbree: Oh, that's good. I mean, that it, it's a respectable [00:08:00] job for a, a recent high school graduate. It's a respectable 

[00:08:02] Kris: job.

[00:08:02] Yes. It, it's expected to do this, expected that you're not gonna be listened to. I mean, looking back on it, all the women, many girls like me, you know, they just came and did their job and so they, you know, there wasn't any, there was never gonna be an opportunity for something else, I don't think. Um, especially if you're 19 years old, you know, you're 18 years old, um, right.

[00:08:21] And I couldn't see the future then. I couldn't see that this could be better. And then I was seeing this person, not seriously. My father was strong-willed. And again, we never had any communication where you really sat down as a parent and talk to me or vice versa. And, um. At one point somebody, a friend of my dad's had stopped by our house, and I was there in the kitchen, and he said to me, I, I know this was just a pivotal thing for me in my life.

[00:08:46] He said to me, well, what do you think you'd like to do? And I said, well, I think I'd like to be a barber. And I was serious. I said, I, I think I'd like to, you know, cut men's hair. And, you know, my father looked at me as if I had just slapped him in the face or [00:09:00] something. And he just was like, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

[00:09:03] And, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. He just went on. So I felt so belittled. Um, I was devastated. I just devastated. And even if he would've been the parent that would have like this man left, and he would've sat down with me and say, help me understand why you're feeling that way. Why, why would you think about that?

[00:09:19] And that thing. But it was, you know, it was the time that it was, and he was Italian. And you know, the idea of a woman being a barber was more than he could probably. I don't know, somehow, and of course my father was dealing with, you know, the miniskirts and the, you know, the different kinds of things that were different for him of, you know, when are you gonna put some clothes on, you know?

[00:09:37] And compared to, to today, I have two granddaughters compared to today. We were covered. So, um, so I remember going upstairs and coming back down and he said something, I don't remember exactly what he said, but something really gruff and something, you know, and he never was abusive or anything, but he, you know, just more not available.

[00:09:56] And I just said, well, dad, you know, and I was really upset and I [00:10:00] just said, I don't need you to tell. I mean, I have to figure this out and, I mean, I don't need you to tell me and everything. So he, he just told me to get out that if I don't need him, get out. So I think I went back upstairs and thinking he doesn't mean it kind of thing.

[00:10:12] And I come back downstairs and he meant it. I had to leave, I had no job, no transportation. My mother stood right there and didn't say, Tom, you're being ridiculous, which is what I would've said or something, you know, I would've tried to, and she did not in any way try to, to help. And that was a real pivotal moment in my life.

[00:10:30] Um, so I ended up going, um, that person I've been dating, I went to a friend, a guy friend of mine. We were just really close friends and spent the night, and this guy that I've been dating came over there that night and we ended up having sex. We had never had sex before. And I didn't care. I didn't care. I wasn't thinking pregnancy, I wasn't thinking anything.

[00:10:49] I'm just, I don't care. So that really, I didn't get pregnant right? Then I got pregnant not long after that because I didn't care. I, I just, I wasn't thinking any of those things. I'm just, I just wanted somebody to care about me [00:11:00] and clearly he didn't care about me. He cared about having sex with an 18-year-old girl.

[00:11:04] And, um, and unfortunately, well, fortunately in lots of ways, but unfortunately, you know, I ended up getting pregnant back then. It's not like today. You get pregnant, everybody's like, hallelujah. Who cares if you're single? Who cares if you're whatever. This was a very, very shameful time and um, ended up, Tina was two months premature.

[00:11:23] I didn't tell my parents till I was six months. Don't ask me how I got that away with that, but I did. Um. I didn't show much and you know, he just wore some looser clothes or whatever. And I had a tough pregnancy. Um, I was bleeding from the time I was like four and a half months. And so I think my mother thought I just had a constant period 'cause I had to go bypass pads and stuff like that.

[00:11:41] And 

[00:11:41] Marbree: were you seeing a doctor, I mean, were you getting any sort of prenatal care? Yes, I 

[00:11:45] Kris: was seeing a doc, I was seeing a gynecologist, uh, ob, GYN and I actually knew my parents very well, but obviously he didn't say anything and he just said, you, you know, you're not gonna go full term. I don't think I was even nine.

[00:11:56] I don't think I'd quite turned 19 yet. You just, I'm in such denial. And I [00:12:00] started bleeding. I thought, hallelujah, I never have to face the world and tell them that I'm pregnant. I mean, it was that bad. And, um, and obviously the, the guy I had been seeing, I had to tell him and he said, what do you wanna do?

[00:12:12] And I said, well, I don't wanna get married. That's number one. I don't want, I don't want that. I just, I don't know what. And so we had decided, or I really had decided that I would have the child and give it up for adoption. 'cause I certainly wasn't prepared in lots of ways, in every way possible to, to be a parent.

[00:12:28] And, um, so I had Tina, um, the end of May and she was two months premature. And one of my biggest regrets in life is that I did not go see her in the hospital because at that time, when you're gonna give a child up for adoption, they strongly discourage you from seeing the child. And I kind of went along with that.

[00:12:48] And, um, I called once a week to the pediatric off pediatrician to find out how she, you know, the pediatricians were going to see her at the hospital. The one guy was very nice to tell me how she was progressing and [00:13:00] that sort of thing. Then when it was time that I knew she was gonna be coming home, I just said, I can't do this.

[00:13:05] I, I can't, I can't give her up for adoption. 

[00:13:08] And 

[00:13:08] so I didn't, but I had to set my parents down and say, you know, I, I can't do this. I, I really, but I have no place. You know, I was working and stuff, but I said, I, I can't afford to be on my own and I can't, you know, can't, you know, I'm gonna have to have stuff.

[00:13:22] And to their credit, they welcomed Tina into, into their lives and, um, when we're loving and adoring to her, always, always. And, um, so that's how it. All because you have an argument with your father. I'm not saying I couldn't have got pregnant some other time or whatever, but it was more that, that pivotal thing.

[00:13:42] And I know this in my soul, that's, that's where it came, you know, while I was still trying to figure out what do I wanna do with my life and boom. So my life just changed. Yeah. Uh, dramatically. And I always felt guilty for Tina because she's got a, a 19-year-old, inexperienced, you know, it's like you're just figuring life out [00:14:00] yourself.

[00:14:00] I decided nobody should have children before they're 30. Um, so anyway, so that's where I was after school. I worked, um, my mother, um, at that time was off work when I went back to work. She took care of her a few months. And then I had a friend who had a child at home and, and she took care of her. And then my aunt took care.

[00:14:20] I mean, I paid for sitter course back then. It was like 20 bucks a week, so for childcare. But I made about. $50 a week. So I probably, um, 

[00:14:30] Marbree: so the ratio is similar. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Just the numbers are different. Yeah. 

[00:14:33] Kris: Right. Yeah. And Tina turned out pretty amazing. Well, that's good. 

[00:14:37] Marbree: Were there any ramifications in the community for you?

[00:14:40] Kris: Uh, well, a lot of judgment. Lots of judgment, lots of eyes, you know, that they turn away from you, um, or they think you're kidding when you say you, like, I remember a neighbor one time, I had Tina on my hip, this is in their neighborhood, and, and said, oh, whose baby is that? And I said, mine. He goes, no, really?

[00:14:59] And he starts laughing, no, [00:15:00] really? And I said, no, really? It's, it's mine. But it just wasn't done. You just didn't, if you had a child, you gave the child up for adoption, uh, back then or so often. Or parent, I know another high school friend. Um, and I didn't know for years and years she had a child, but in her case, she had been raped.

[00:15:16] And so she gave the child up for adoption. And then, I don't know, 40 years later or whatever, the child got ahold of her and they have a relationship now. Um, wow, that's amazing. But that her parents really pushed her to give that child up for adoption, maybe because of the situation or whatever. And I didn't have, I had a short relationship 

[00:15:35] with, 

[00:15:35] um, the biological father, but he just, you know, I knew he couldn't tell the truth.

[00:15:40] I knew he was somebody who, and finally I just sat him down and go, we're done. We're, you know, you have your life. Just go, have your life. You know? He didn't really help me with anything. Um, I think at one point he gave me $10. It a or something like that. And the craziest thing is I had, um, if I gave her up for adoption, they were gonna [00:16:00] pay for.

[00:16:01] Hospital bill, doctor bill, and that sort of thing. But because I decided to keep her, uh, I was told that social services, they would not pay for her pay for the hospital bill, which back then I think was a couple thousand dollars, which compared to today is lap pittance. But when you don't have $2,000, it's, you know, and he gave me a lot of money, gave me $10, and I finally, I just said to him, forget it.

[00:16:20] I'm taking care of this myself. So I paid for, well, no. Then eventually some social worker at there finally just said, I don't know, they made some because she was a preemie, because whatever, they ended up paying for it. Uh, but I was paying for it up till then. And then of course he got the pediatrician, you know, stuff and everything.

[00:16:35] Uh, but he was no help with any of that. So it was became very clear and he came back a few months later, he goes, well, I want Tina to have my name. Maybe it was a year or two later. I want Tina to have my name. And I said, well, there's only one way that's gonna happen, and that's if I got your name. And that's never happening.

[00:16:49] So that was it. It was just it. And I went to him and Bill and I were, I engaged. Engaged and um, just told him, I said, I'm getting married and Bill wants to adopt her. He, his name wasn't on the birth certificate or any, he had [00:17:00] no legal claim. And back then, that's what it was. He didn't, he just said, I want you to be happy.

[00:17:04] I want her to be happy. I go, okay, bye-bye. And I'm thrilled. Was thrilled. Yeah. 

[00:17:09] Marbree: Did Tina ever ask about him? 

[00:17:11] Kris: Uh, it's interesting. She, I think when she was about, yeah, I mean, we were totally open. Bill and I have been to, we're always totally open with her. She was our flower girl, so, um, and so it was never a secret or anything like that, and she just, we just always said to her, I.

[00:17:28] If a time comes that you ever want to know more or you would like to see him or meet him. And when she was maybe about 10, 11, something like that, he had sent her a card with like $10 in it and she was kind of happy to get it. And then after she had Ella, um, she was curious more about his family history with, you know, medical stuff and that sort of thing.

[00:17:49] And she got ahold of his mother, who I hadn't seen in a billion years. I've only met her once or twice. And, um, and talked to her on the phone for some time. And that [00:18:00] was years and years ago. I mean, Ella's gonna be twenty-two years old, so that's a long time ago. And then when Tina was diagnosed, you know, we talked a couple times and I said, is this something that you, you know, I don't want you to have something that's unresolved for you.

[00:18:13] You know, because we knew what the end result was gonna be. And we just said, you know, she goes, mom, she goes, I couldn't have had a better dad and I'm not, I'm not interested. And she seemed to mean it just genuinely, I I have family, I have. Yeah. So, and I'm sure there's millions of adoptive kids out there who feel that way too.

[00:18:29] Some don't. But she did feel that way. 

[00:18:31] Marbree: Yeah. Yeah. Which is good. You chose wisely in Bill. Yeah. 

[00:18:34] Kris: Yeah. And vice versa. 

[00:18:38] Marbree: Of course. He 

[00:18:41] Kris: always 

[00:18:41] Marbree: says, I'm in the blue. He, he got the, the better deal in getting both of you. So 

[00:18:45] Kris: he, he says what he says, that's what he says. Imagine that we wouldn't have more children.

[00:18:49] That was, that was certainly part of the plan, was to have at least two more kids and just never could get pregnant. Um, yeah, there's certain irony in that, that I never wanted to get pregnant at 18 [00:19:00] and have a baby at 19. Desperately try for from 25 to about 40 something till the doctor finally said, your eggs are old.

[00:19:09] Yeah. Anyway, that was my part, my part of my life, and my parents were very loving to Tina and that was great, and my sisters. All within nine months. My oldest sister had already had like a 3-year-old, I think she was three, and then she had a baby in December. I had Tina in May, and my other sister had a baby in um, October.

[00:19:27] Uh, so they all connected, grew up. And then a couple years later there were a couple more kids. So when we all got together at my parents' house, we have some fabulous photos and things like that. And so Tina always felt like she had, these cousins were a lot like siblings to her, even though we didn't live in Watertown, we only lived in Albany.

[00:19:45] So we would be up quite often for, you know, summer and some summer time and some winter time and stuff. So she really felt like she was connected to that, which was great. And, um, 

[00:19:53] yeah, 

[00:19:54] and they were very loving, supporting when she was, when she was diagnosed and stuff too. So. 

[00:19:59] Marbree: Did she have a, a [00:20:00] decent relationship with your parents?

[00:20:01] Kris: Oh yeah. Very good. Yeah. Very good. Yeah. My father, you know, as much as he could, he could have his gruffness and that sort of thing with Tina, he would just melt. He would just melt. Yeah. And my mother was very much in love with Tina for sure. And that got over, like we all had to, we had to kind of get over the, the shame or whatever.

[00:20:19] 'cause it wasn't Tina, it was 

[00:20:20] Yeah. 

[00:20:21] What the world tells you that you're not okay. Which I already didn't think, I didn't think I was okay to begin with. So I didn't really need other people to tell me I wasn't. Okay. Um, but I always had a job. I always worked, I always, you know, I ended up working for the county after that for, well, a couple years anyway.

[00:20:38] Um, two or three years before we got married. I worked in the Narcotics Guidance council as a stenographer. And, uh, but it was a good, a good county job. 'cause you had, you got benefits and the pay sucked as usual, but you had benefits and everything. Um, health insurance and all that stuff. Yeah. And I was, I was able to manage.

[00:20:58] How did you meet Bill? Uh, [00:21:00] Bill's family, uh, his father was a doctor, um, a surgeon in Watertown. And Watertown wasn't big even then. I mean, 30,000 people or whatever. And he operated on my mother, my father, my grandfather, my sister, you know. So he just knew Dr. Montgomery, um, and all the boys, five boys, and they were all in sports.

[00:21:23] And so when you're all in the same. School district and that sort of thing. And the Montgomerys just were known. Um, and his father was died at the age of 45. And that was a huge, in Watertown, that was a very, the whole town kind of grieved that Bill had been gone to college and stuff. And then when he was in the Reserves and when he came back, you know, he would be out.

[00:21:42] And Steve Williamson our closest, you know, Bill's best man. And I was, bill was his best man. Um, they were good buddies and I knew Steve very, very well. Um, his girlfriend who sadly died of cerebral hemorrhage at 20 years old, I, I knew her very well. Isn't that awful? Yeah. She was my sister's maid of honor at my [00:22:00] sister's wedding.

[00:22:00] And so I knew Steve. So if I was out, you know, with a couple of friends, I'd see Steve and I just would go over and say hi or whatever. And at that time, Bill, most of the time would be with him. So, and I knew who Bill Mo, I didn't know him. I'd never met him. And you know, when you don't know somebody, but you know him from the same town, like, okay, that's Bill Montgomery.

[00:22:16] Oh, that's Kris Ottey. And it was that, that kind of thing. And we just started. Just started dating and we hit it off pretty quickly and we had a lot of laughs. And he, he wasn't afraid to be around Tina. He wasn't intimidated. He wasn't, you know, um, he was, she was two and a half and, and, uh, playful. And, you know, not a whiny kid, not a, you know, not a demanding kid.

[00:22:38] And she, he just, he just took such a shine to her. But it was right. It just was right. And we got married a little over a year later, and the engagements was funny. He had taken a job. Troy, New York for the county down there. He knew he wanted to go to graduate school, and so we never talked marriage because I knew that at some point he was gonna leave Albany and go to graduate school or whatever.[00:23:00] 

[00:23:00] So he took this job down in, in Troy, New York. And um, we talked on the phone every night for, you know, how, you know, how it is back then. He just talk, talk, talk, talk, long distance. And, um, and he came back two weeks later and walked into my parents' house. And I was there with Tina and, and my little nephew who's about the same age and they're at the table and they're squealing and, you know, carrying on like a three-year-olds do.

[00:23:21] And, um, you know, we hugged and kissed and then we're at the kitchen sink at my parents' house and he asked me to marry him. There. Not a romantic, not a like down on your knees, no diamond no. This was just, do you wanna get married kind of thing because he was so anxious to get out of the car. Just do it.

[00:23:38] Like, just, you know, and, and I started laughing and I said yes and everything, so we're giggling and the kids are giggling. And, and I said, well, you know when, like, how about next, like next June? 'cause this was November thinking it's Watertown New York. And he goes, June I, I'm not waiting till June. He goes, the last week in February, last week in January, first week in February.

[00:23:58] I'm not waiting any longer than that. And I was [00:24:00] like, I, 'cause you're g gone love I said, started laughing and I said, well, I don't think that's how it's supposed to go. I think that when you get engaged, it's supposed to be, you have a conversation. Well guess what? We got married last week of January, nine weeks later.

[00:24:12] And of course everybody was sure, not everybody, but often I think people were. Thinking I was pregnant and that's the reason why we were getting married. And I said, I wish I'd been, they didn't know if that would've been that way fine by me. And Tina would've been a, a great big sister to, you know, whoever.

[00:24:26] And, uh, so we laughed and, and it's, you know, we've had our, you know, 50 will be 51 years next month. Uh, you know, there's ups and downs. There's, luckily most of it good, and some, you know, pretty, pretty devastating, some moving on. I mean, you just, you work at it. It's not something you just, and luckily the foundation, what I, my granddaughter's in a serious relationship right now, but she's only 21.

[00:24:47] And I said to her, I said, the only thing I'll say to you is. Build a foundation if you think this is, if you two think this is, maybe it, you better build a foundation 'cause there's gonna get cracks. So nobody told any me any of these things, but I said, build a foundation doesn't mean [00:25:00] it's still gonna be, it's not gonna be perfect no matter what you do, but take the good things when they come.

[00:25:04] Yeah. 

[00:25:04] And we did, and we're awfully grateful that we, especially with everything Tina went through and that sort of thing, we're glad that that foundation was, was shored up, uh, when it was. Yeah. Um, yeah. 

[00:25:13] Marbree: You anticipated my question in there, so thank you. As I was gonna ask, uh, okay. With, uh, you know, with, with 51 years of marriage and all those ups and downs, what, what advice would you give someone, but you've already covered that, so thank you.

[00:25:24] Um, you're welcome. Let's, let's go back a little bit and we'll, we'll meander through time. Father's lack of availability, let's say. How do you think that shaped you as a parent? It made me 

[00:25:36] Kris: want to be more of a parent. Actually, my mother too was not avail. My mother had a really difficult upbringing and was an only child, and so she didn't know how to, and, and here she gets married and has four kids.

[00:25:47] Think of the insanity. In the house when they're, my sisters are a year apart. Then there's like 15 months and there's like 18 months. And you know, you have, you know, financially you're just getting by. You're doing what you gotta do. So I've always felt [00:26:00] somewhat badly for my mother that she just never could, she had to do what she had to do.

[00:26:05] You're just trying to get by. And, um, and my dad, who, you know, I gotta back up a little bit. He grew up in an all Italian family where my grandmother, you know, she didn't, she was wackadoo, but she, you know, she's not like, she had opinion that mattered to anybody. And my father's, all of his friends, most of his friends were.

[00:26:23] Athletes and, um, Italian guys that went out to the bars and things like that. You know, that's, that's what it was. I mean, that's, you know, if they, if they had a night to go, my father wasn't home putting us to bed or anything. It's, and we basically put ourselves to bed because, so I, what I'm saying is my parents, they loved us.

[00:26:40] We knew they loved us and that sort of thing, but it wasn't that kind of thing that I think of. Like, I read a story to Tina every single night, you know, that's, to me that was important to, to do that to, and, and she became a, an avid reader, always her whole life. And I'm not a great reader and she's, she always was a great reader.

[00:26:57] She would read a book three, four times. [00:27:00] I take her to the library, you know, so I do think my father's, um, I wouldn't say it's, he just didn't know how to have a conversation with you about anything that was deep. And my mother didn't really either. And I remember writing to my mother probably about 25 years ago.

[00:27:15] Well now she's been gone 25, so 30 years ago, whatever. And saying that. I'd love to have just a nice, really just deep conversation with her about something. I don't think that we talk about enough about things. She was so shocked. She had no idea what I was talking about. N none whatsoever. And I think it hurt her, but then she, you know, she got over it.

[00:27:35] So you gotta accept people where they are, not where you want 'em to be. 

[00:27:37] Yeah. 

[00:27:39] We've all been there in our lives, so, and the fact that we were a close family and when we all got together, it was, it was fun and games. It was, it was singing and dancing and that sort of thing. And so, yeah. What was dinnertime like?

[00:27:53] Uh, it was always good food. It was a lot of giggling at the table. My father, at one point, they owned a family, [00:28:00] like a neighborhood bar for about five years. So my father was never there at night 'cause he worked there. Like my mother would work there during the day and he taught school at a, a rural high school during the day, some classes.

[00:28:12] And then my mother would come home and have dinner and the four of us giggling at the table. And my father of course wouldn't be there. So Sunday was the only time we really sat down and had a meal as a family. 'cause that's the only day that my dad could be there. And um, so it wasn't, there weren't any deep seated discussions, but when you got four kids who are looking across the table and my brother would just do something, we'd all just, we would just all collapse.

[00:28:32] And my mother not having siblings, she'd be like, stop laughing. What, what's so funny? And of course the more she would do that, the more we would laugh. We could still do that. Of course we could still do that. So, yeah. But you do treasure when my dad was there on a Sunday, you do treasure that because, um, they're not deep seated discussions, but it was the six of us, so that was important.

[00:28:54] Yeah. 

[00:28:54] Marbree: Did you have hobbies as a child? 

[00:28:56] Kris: The only thing in school that I really loved, I loved chorus. [00:29:00] I was in chorus all through junior high, high school, even in grade school in like sixth grade kind of thing. Those are things that I, I really enjoyed and felt connected to the people in that, that, that we did that with.

[00:29:10] No, no organized sports. 

[00:29:11] Marbree: Did your high school have anything for girls other than maybe cheerleading? 

[00:29:15] Kris: They had cheerleading, but I didn't make the team. And it, again, it was one of those rude realities where I was athletic. Um, and a girl that made it, uh, her father was the athletic director and I remember going out for it.

[00:29:26] And my oldest sister had been a cheerleader and so that was kind of important to me and everything. And she made the squad and I didn't. I remember watching her and she did it and she couldn't jump as well and she couldn't do this and she couldn't do that and that sort of thing. And it's sort of like that thing, you know, you're in 10th grade and you're like, but why She's making it because her father is, and now what?

[00:29:46] In some ways it's a good lesson. 'cause you find out that's how the world works in so many ways. So you have to, I don't think I realized it at the time. I was embarrassed, you know? 'cause you didn't make the team right. And it was important to me. But I survived. I survived. 

[00:29:58] Marbree: And as you say, perhaps there was a, a [00:30:00] lesson to be learned at that age, but not a nice one.

[00:30:02] Kris: Later on, later on, later on, you did. 

[00:30:04] Marbree: After Kris and Bill married, they lived in a somewhat rural area, east Green Bush, New York. And childcare wasn't easy to come by. So initially Kris stayed home once time allowed. She worked a variety of jobs when work in a pediatrician's office meant constantly catching whatever the patients had.

[00:30:22] She was ready for a change 

[00:30:23] Kris: and I ended up taking a course at a community college. I don't remember what it was, like an English course or something. And then I took another course and 'cause I was sure they're gonna find out that I not there, I shouldn't be there, right? And so I took a course, then I took two courses and before I know it, I don't know if it was.

[00:30:39] Then the following year, something like that. I ended up being full-time still trying to figure out what this meant and when they were gonna figure out I didn't belong there and that sort of thing. And, um, eventually after the two years, I ended up transferring to Albany, uh, state University of, of Albany and, and, and ended up in the social work undergraduate program there.

[00:30:58] And it was a great [00:31:00] experience because there was a few of us who were in that age group in my age group, you know, in their thirties and that sort of thing, had children, kids maybe halfway growing up or whatever, and they, we just connected and we, we just had more laughs and more love and that sort thing.

[00:31:15] We were all sure when are they going to find out that we. 'cause none of us, out of my two closest friends there, none of us had gone to college. And so we're, you know, struggling with that a little bit. And we all ended up on the dean's list and we all, you know, we all did fine. And then when that, when we got our bachelor's, there was a accelerated master's program that you could go for 12 months kind of intense and get your master's in social work, MSW.

[00:31:39] And we all said, okay, one for all. We're all, we're all doing this and we all, well you had to have a certain grade point average to get into stuff. And we, we went and we. We did it. You know, we, we graduated and, um, very proud of ourselves. And there was, you know, a little gathering. Bill had a little gathering and stuff.

[00:31:55] And for my family, 'cause I was the only one to go to college, and my parents were there and my dad being [00:32:00] the only one who went to college, it felt pretty important. And I still don't think I'm the smartest person, but I'm capable to.

[00:32:08] There's smart. I, I suspect you need to give yourself more credit. I probably do. I probably do. But when you grow up thinking you're not smart, it's hard to, hard to get past that. But good. Um, but I, I, I had to, you know, I, you know, I have to deal with those all, all of us. I'm sure you do. Everybody has to deal with some of their stuff, whatever their insecurities are and stuff.

[00:32:25] But, uh, 

[00:32:26] Marbree: it 

[00:32:26] Kris: was, 

[00:32:26] Marbree: again, respect. Oh, not me. My mother told me that I'm perfect in every way.

[00:32:33] Kris: Well, good for her. Good for her. I tried to tell Tina, too. But, you know, there were times as a parent, I was either too harsh or sometimes I was too soft. You know, you parenting is the hardest job. I don't care what job anybody has. I don't care if it's president of the United States. Parenting is the hardest job anybody has, I think.

[00:32:48] Because you're back and you're like, oh God, maybe I should have said that instead, you know? But 

[00:32:51] Marbree: yeah. What drew you to social work? 

[00:32:53] Kris: Uh, I think the idea of, um, helping other people. I wish that, that I [00:33:00] would've been listened to a little bit more and, um. After Tina was about a year old, I went to social services, had a full-time job and had health insurance, but to afford the doctor's offices.

[00:33:11] And Tina was a preemie so there was more, more times to go to the doctors and stuff. And they, insurance didn't pay for that. And I went and said, is there anything I can get that just helps me with those expenses, which would've been probably $50 a month or something, you know, some. And that worker looked at me and said, your parents both work full time and they're responsible for you until you're 21 years old.

[00:33:31] And I was 20 or something at the time. I remember leaving there crying my eyes out and going over to my dad's office who worked for the county. And of course he didn't know how to comfort me, but, and just saying, how could she talk to me like that? I have a job. You're not responsible. My, my parents didn't pay for my diapers and formula and that sort of thing.

[00:33:49] I paid for those things and I lived at home. And so I remember feeling, again, feeling very ashamed about that. Um, so I don't, I, I don't know if that directly had it, but I know that when I was in school [00:34:00] and thinking about different things of coursework and that sort of thing, to talk to people with respect, talk to them where they are, um, you may not agree with where they are and try to help them get to a better place, but at least treat them with a respect they deserve.

[00:34:12] Um, and I still try to do that in my life. 

[00:34:14] Marbree: Kris and I had a technical glitch at this point, so we're jumping to just after Kris finished graduate school, when she and Bill were having some challenges in their relationship and had moved to Massachusetts where Bill had a job in Boston, 

[00:34:28] Kris: I ended up meeting the head of social work at New England Medical Center and having a conversation with her about what this would be, if there was a job there, what it would be like and that sort of thing.

[00:34:37] And that summer. The following summer after graduation, I ended up getting a temporary job at, um, Mass General in the social work department as just to fill in like when people were on vacation stuff. Now I was so out of my league, Mass General is one of the best hospitals in the world. Huge, a little overwhelming to say the least.

[00:34:55] And here I am, I don't even know how to get there by myself and that sort of thing, but it was, [00:35:00] you know, I did that for about six weeks. And then after that I ended up getting a job at New England Medical Center and I was in the pediatrics social work. Uh, so I covered the ICU and the cardiology. And, um, one other thing, uh, pulmonology and it was a real education.

[00:35:14] And, and again, a situation where, you see parents. Go through what they go through with their babies, their children, their whatever. And I would say to Bill on the way home, I'd say, if I ever complain about my life, please remind me of what these people are going through and what these children are going through.

[00:35:31] When you see babies with needles in their head, in the ICU and parents, I mean, I remember a couple parents where they had planned their pregnancy and everything was perfect, and they were sure life was always gonna be perfect because they did everything the right way. And then their child is born with a cardiac problem that has to have open heart surgery and they go, I don't understand.

[00:35:49] I didn't smoke, I didn't drink, I didn't, you know, da da da. And it's just kinda like Tina getting a brain tumor. It just sucks. It just, it's just stupid luck of the draw kind of thing. So it really was a [00:36:00] great education and I worked there for about, I think it was almost five years before we moved. Uh, we moved to Burlington after that, but I did know that the last.

[00:36:08] Six months I was there. I did not wanna commute every single day into Boston, the commute you can imagine is, you know, and I said, I'm gonna look for work closer to home. I'm just, I, I don't wanna be doing this five days a week and that sort of thing. And, um, and we had, you know, a home to take care of. We had things, you know, so anyway, that was a good experience.

[00:36:25] And then in Burlington, I worked for a visiting Nurse Association program, which again, I loved, absolutely loved, pay sucked, didn't care. Um, and I worked in something called the Family Room. And these were all kids, mostly young women, many of whom were single. Who were on public assistance, some of them. And this program was free to them.

[00:36:44] And, um, they're just struggling to try to get through with their kids and have their kids be school ready. That was, that was the goal of the program, to have these children be school ready for, for kindergarten. And, uh, they had to be not three, that had to be four, four to, no, maybe it was three, but not, not even [00:37:00] like three and a half, whatever to get in.

[00:37:01] And I had the best education. The, the teacher who ran that program was fabulous. I wanted to be her when I grew up. It's like, and I thought about going back and getting an early childhood education degree in Vermont, and, but they're gonna make me start all over. And I'm like, wait a minute, I have a master's degree.

[00:37:17] Yes, I'll take some education courses. I'm, I'm cool with that. But no, I'm not starting. I'm 40, whatever. I'm not gonna do that. But I had just a great, great experience there, um, doing that and, um. Then in, in Gainesville, I didn't work. By that time Tina was having children. There was other priorities in my life.

[00:37:36] And so I did volunteer, I did volunteer stuff and was involved with kids who get taken away from their parents. Um, foster, foster, foster care. Foster, yeah. Foster. Yeah. This program. But again, they're trying to reunite these kids, but in the meantime, their lives are. So we did fundraising and we did, you know, holiday stuff and we did, and again, great bunch of ladies that I was involved with.

[00:37:55] Very intelligent, very capable women. You know, nobody's getting paid. You know, we do a huge fundraiser every [00:38:00] year and it was like, it became, I became, I went from secretary to treasurer to treasurer to VP to VP to president. 'cause that's what happens when you volunteer. So, um, but it was a great, again, another great experience.

[00:38:12] And then we moved. So, you know, every time I get settled into something. We move. So then we went to Illinois and I was like, nah, no, not investing myself in the same way in Illinois for sure. And by that time, kids were little, Tina was in graduate school. I lived in Albany for close to a year. Uh, while she was in graduate school.

[00:38:30] I had an apartment like two blocks away, knowing that living there, I would've shot myself. And so it was great to go be with the kids and pick 'em up after school and things like that was, it was a great year to do that. And unfortunately, not long after that was when Tina was diagnosed. Um, so which would be nine years in February.

[00:38:47] Um. Yeah, 

[00:38:48] Marbree: Kris, I'm 

[00:38:49] Kris: so sorry, but I had some, you know, I never say I had like a great career, but I had a lot of interesting and often fun and great people to be with. I was never interested in the money. We had money, we had enough money to live. That [00:39:00] wasn't a, that wasn't the issue. It was more about what, what would I like to do?

[00:39:03] What would I, you know, who would I like to be with 

[00:39:05] Marbree: The women who you finished the undergraduate degree and then went on to your master's with, do you still keep in contact with any of them? 

[00:39:12] Kris: Well, yes and no. Uh, sadly, um, they all came, the, the both of them came when we lived in Massachusetts for my 40th birthday.

[00:39:20] And we had a great time and, and everything and um, and it's so great to be, I'm sure you experienced this so great to be with people who just know who you are. You don't have to, you don't have to explain. You don't have to like, they already know your shit in your life and you don't have to like get into that.

[00:39:33] And we just had a great time and Bill had a great time. Yeah. And unfortunately one of them, she'd gone through cancer while we were in undergraduate and graduate school and she ended up dying on my 41st birthday. 

[00:39:45] A year 

[00:39:45] later. Yeah. Yeah. And she was a great lady. She really was just a super, super gal and, uh, great sense of humor and it was a very sad, very sad time.

[00:39:53] And my other friend, she and her husband went through a terrible divorce after that, but I still keep in touch with her. We see each other. [00:40:00] She's back in Albany and has been for a long time. And when I just, before we came down here this year, I was in Albany and we make a point, we go out to breakfast and yak, yak, yak, yak, yak.

[00:40:10] And uh, so it's nice to have somebody who know, again, who knows you that well. And, and we've made lots of friends over the years. Oh. Every state you live in, you make, you know more friends. You know that, I mean, it's just, other than Illinois, Bill has some work people he still stays in touch with. But I don't have anybody, 'cause I really wasn't there that much.

[00:40:25] And I kind of didn't feel emotionally like I wanted to get invested a whole lot knowing we're not staying here. This is not gonna be, which I had invested myself time and time again, and I just didn't wanna do that. Not in a negative way. It just sort of like, gotta do what I gotta do to leave retires. So, yeah.

[00:40:41] Marbree: How did you make friends as you moved as an adult? 

[00:40:43] Kris: Well, I still have friends. We still have really close friends too in East Green, Bush, New York. When we moved there out of the garage apartment, we bought a townhouse a few months later. And um, probably within very short time after buying it, a lady came to the door and she said, I'm from welcome [00:41:00] wagon.

[00:41:00] And I'm kind of like, what's welcome wagon. Right then I'm what, 23 years old? We talk for a little bit and she goes, well, we have this lady's group. She goes and we meet once a month and blah, blah, blah, blah. I said, okay, where is it? What time? Where is it? I didn't care. They could be mass murderers. I was going to, I gonna join.

[00:41:16] And um, and so I did. And um, we are still friends with several of the people and their spouses from that group. And that's 50 going on 50 years ago. In fact, uh, two of the couples. Were here for our 50th anniversary last January. One couple flew down and spent like a week here, not at, at our house because we didn't have room.

[00:41:36] But, um, there, another friend was in Southern Florida and they came up and spent the weekend and, and we just had, but again, you know, each other, you know, some of the greats, you know, some of the ugly, you know, whatever. And, uh, and of course we're all getting up there. I mean, one couple, they're both gonna be 81 soon.

[00:41:51] And so you gotta appreciate those, gotta appreciate those times there. So that's how I met a lot of the people there. And we got involved in stuff with that group too. You know, we had a bowling group, we had [00:42:00] this group, and the guys got to get, we, we had stuff all the time. Um, and of course, once your kids are in school, when Tina, when Tina got in kindergarten, you start to meet other people too.

[00:42:07] Kids tie you into your community and you volunteer for different things and everything. So that, that was good. In Boston, we ended up, well, at first we didn't wanna meet any, I didn't wanna meet anybody. Um, but then we ended up meeting a couple, he was a social worker at New England Medical Center, but he played golf with Bill and we went out with him one time.

[00:42:28] Turned out that she was from like an hour and a half from us, from Watertown and then her, her sister was married to a guy I went to high school with. It was one of those weird, like, you get together and you're like, where are you from? Da da da. And she goes, yeah, well my sister Kathy's is married to Mike Elliot.

[00:42:43] And I started left and I go, I graduate. And one of Bill's brother's closest friends, it was like, so this, those things kept happening with 'em and we were very close with them the whole time we lived there. And then we moved. But even after we moved, they came to Vermont to see us. You still keep that, those connections and I'm a social person or volunteering is a [00:43:00] great way to meet people.

[00:43:01] A lot of like-minded. 

[00:43:02] Marbree: Yes. Yeah. Sharing interest is, is always a good way to, to connect. 

[00:43:06] Kris: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:43:07] Marbree: If you were speaking to somebody who, who were deciding on a career as you were in, you know, adult years, thirties, forties, that kind of timeframe, do you have any advice you'd give them? 

[00:43:16] Kris: I think some of it depends on where they've been, but also, you know, I mean, people.

[00:43:21] Sometimes they're looking at careers not only about what they'd like to do in this thing, but financially how, how they, you know, a lot of people can't live on a social work salary. Um, you know, it's better than it used to be, but it's, you know, you can't, 

[00:43:32] uh, 

[00:43:33] and find something you just know in your heart that you would, how you would wanna be with people, you know?

[00:43:37] But if somebody really wants to do something, they need to figure out why. Like, what is it that's, what's your passion? What's your, what do you hope to accomplish? And I'm sure you've done that in your own life. You know, what, what is it that you hope to accomplish? You know, because you don't wanna do all the effort and all the time and all the, uh, angst of doing it and getting all done and go, oh crap, that's, that's not it.

[00:43:58] So I never had any, I never had [00:44:00] any regrets with that. 

[00:44:01] Marbree: Is there anything in your life that you'd go back and change if you could? 

[00:44:03] Kris: Yes, I would be married and I would have Tina years, years later, where I was maybe had some maturity, some life experience to help me be a better parent. That that would probably be my, my one thing that I, you know, wish, but it is what it, you know, it is what it is.

[00:44:19] But that, that would probably be, but you mean regrets, like something I could actually change now because Yeah, yeah. Um, not really. Life has taken its twists and turns. Like I say, there's been some really, the majority of it's, especially in our marriage, has been good. And the few, couple bumpy, really bumpy roads, just, if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger.

[00:44:39] So that kind of thing are depressing. I mean, I still get depressed. You can't not get depressed when, you know, we went through what we went through with Tina and stuff. I mean that that's there. But, uh, if I could change anything, will I go back to my father not telling me I had a stupid idea? You know?

[00:44:55] Yeah. Those things, I mean, everybody has stuff with their parents that they wish they maybe did differently, and I [00:45:00] certainly do as a parent. I certainly wish that there's things that I've been more understanding or I've been more patient or I've been with those, those things. But, you know, I have to say to myself, I look at the people who knew her and knew her in a different way than I knew her.

[00:45:14] Her friendships, her work people. I still hear her. Like I say, the anniversary of her passing a couple days ago. You know, we get text. We get emails, you know, Christmas will come and there'll be stuff of people saying how much they miss her or how much whatever. And I know that those people think of her in a special way and not just because she was sick and she passed, but because of the relationship they had.

[00:45:37] She had that ability to, uh, and never, I mean, she never complained in almost four years of her illness, you know? Phenomenal. I think one day she said to me, this really sucked. I said, that's the best you got. But you know, that's just so that part I have to remember, as much as I feel like it wasn't a great parent at times, I did the best I could at the time, and she turned out fantastic.

[00:45:59] So that'd [00:46:00] be my only regret. 

[00:46:01] Marbree: Yeah. As you look back over your life, who do you think of as the handful of people who were the most influential or important?  

[00:46:09] Kris: Bill probably is right up there with the most influential person in my life. And, um, because he saw me in a way I didn't even see myself and I learned to see him in a way he hadn't seen himself.

[00:46:20] So I think that that was, that's hard to, hard to remember 52 years ago, a couple the women, well couples, but more the women of that welcome wagon group. Uh, again, when Bill and I were going through a difficult time, they were there a hundred percent. And then my girlfriends that I went to college with, they were there a hundred percent.

[00:46:39] And Karen and Steve Williamson are best friends. Um, she's more like a sister to me and I don't tell her all my secrets or like that, but just sort of like, they live across the street at the cottage for the last 22 years. And so you spend all your time together. So when I say influential, it's more of those friendships.

[00:46:55] It's more those, they get it. There's never a harsh word. There's never a, it's just sort of like [00:47:00] they, they get here and our sense of humor and everything. 

[00:47:02] Marbree: Was there ever a time when a colleague gave a piece of advice when you were going through. A difficult situation at work or, or anywhere along the line.

[00:47:12] Yeah. Was there ever a time when someone said something that really struck the right cord? 

[00:47:15] Kris: Well, I did have a supervisor when I was at New England Medical Center. I had a couple of really tough cases and, um, she was very experienced in hospital social work. And I will say she was someone who you could really go and talk to and talk about your insecure, like, how do I handle this situation?

[00:47:31] How do you support these parents? And especially 'cause I think this mother was probably abusive to this child and having to deal with, um, he'd had some breaks, bones and stuff like that. And the orthopedic group, as soon as they would fix the bone, they would just shove 'em to another service so they didn't have to deal with it, opposed to dealing with, and for me at 40 years old or whatever it was, I just couldn't understand like, why are we not, and she had to help me through, you know, this is sadly, this is a little bit of life.

[00:47:58] Um, and [00:48:00] unless you've got proof, unless you've got whatever. So that, I remember that 

[00:48:03] Marbree: Kris and I went on a bit of a tangent about politics, which led us to Chris sharing a text that she'd received not too long before our conversation from one of her granddaughters. 

[00:48:14] Kris: Why do, why do people hate women in the, in this country?

[00:48:17] And I thought, boy, if she went back 50 years, she'd be in for a real rude awakening. 'cause for me it has changed dramatically. But I can understand when you're young like her, it doesn't feel like that. How does it feel for you? Yeah, I mean, you're young. Oh no, I'm, 

[00:48:31] Marbree: well, I'm not 22, but, um, but no, I agree. It is a feeling very much of our country still hates women.

[00:48:37] And when you start breaking down certain things about rights that really are women's rights, um. It's still all about men control, having control Yeah. Is what it comes down to. Yeah. 

[00:48:48] Kris: And I know even in my own life, and especially being a, a single parent and that sort of thing, and when I've heard even men that I know use expressions, um, like not, she got knocked up and I've said to them, [00:49:00] please don't use that expression.

[00:49:01] I said, you have no idea how derogatory that is. I said, I didn't get knocked up by myself. Right. I had a person who didn't take responsibility for it either. Right? So just keep that in mind. I said, you know, would you want somebody to say that about your daughter now? Would you want somebody, whatever? Well, it's, it's very much still there.

[00:49:21] And I do say to Bill's pretty good, but, and his mother was a really strong woman, but you know, she was a homemaker with five boys. And so, and again, you're talking about it was the 1940s, 1950s, so, you know. Yeah. Um, but I agree with you. It's like, it's, it's, it's there. And for my grandchildren, who you believe and you're in college, like, you know, they're very intelligent, they're very capable young women, and they just don't get what's going on.

[00:49:45] And I thought, well, I haven't got, I'm 73. I didn't know what was going on all those years. I never understood, like, but I knew I was second class. 

[00:49:52] Yeah. 

[00:49:52] I mean, that's how I, how I grew up and, you know, no opportunity for college or anything like that. Um, but I [00:50:00] think even women who went to college, they still felt like that.

[00:50:02] Marbree: Oh, I think so. 

[00:50:03] Kris: But it has changed. Um, oh, it just, oh, without question. 

[00:50:06] Marbree: All right, I'm gonna pull us back for a few more questions since you come from a, at least partially Italian family. Does that mean Catholic? 

[00:50:12] Kris: Yes. 

[00:50:12] Marbree: How was it in your family when Kennedy was elected? Do you remember? Well, for 

[00:50:16] Kris: me, I thought it was fabulous, but again, I was It's 1960.

[00:50:19] Yeah. 1960. Right. Um. I was, you know, 11 years old, so no nine years old. And so, but I remember being at a friend's house and they were not Catholics and all I knew was Kennedy. And he is this handsome guy and he's Catholic and that sort of thing. And so I said at their dinner table, how wonderful it was to have him and her grandmother ripped me a new one.

[00:50:39] Now I'm like, like I say, I'm a kid, I like nine years old. And she goes, we don't ever talk about her. And I just sat there like feeling shamed, of course, then he won. And I do remember the assassination because by that time I'm in Junior, I was in, you know, and it happened during a school day and they came over the announcement, you know, and watching.

[00:50:58] Watching this whole [00:51:00] parade and then watching the Lee Harvey Oswald. And it was a very devastating time for everybody in this country. Um, so I, but I felt about the Catholic thing. I was proud. But see, my parents never really went to church. We, we all had to go make first communion and confirmation. I said, but my parents were, again, it's my parents not being involved in those things.

[00:51:18] See, to me, if a family's going to church, they should all go to church. Like if you're trying to teach your kids this stuff, we just had to go. So we would be, I dunno, I guess whatever the right thing was in the Catholic church. And there's a lot of guilt in the Catholic church. There's a lot of guilt put on kids and I'm not really a, a participant.

[00:51:34] Yeah. 

[00:51:35] Marbree: Would you say that the church did play any, any role though in shaping your personality and the way you see the world? 

[00:51:40] Kris: Um, yeah, but not in the way you might think. Um, I think that, I remember being at a catechism class and the nun, of course the nuns back then were pretty strict. I didn't go to Catholic school.

[00:51:51] This was just a thing you did outside of school to, so you could make confirmation. And I said, uh, she was going on and on about God always was and always will be. You know, [00:52:00] you're a kid, you're trying to understand this. And I raised my hand and said, I, I don't understand how something can always was, and always, you know, like to me there's like a beginning and whatever, you know, I'm trying to understand this.

[00:52:11] And the ruler or the yardstick came down on the desk almost hitting me across the hands in a really angry way. Said, you don't ever question. And so I had the reaction of, I'm going to question, but I'm not gonna ask you any questions. 'cause to me, religious, uh, classes like that are to teach, you know? And to me, if you're throwing a, you know, hitting a ruler and that sort of thing, but nuns back there could be pretty.

[00:52:37] So I had to go. I just had to keep going. I just kept my mouth shut. Um, and I prayed to God when I was pregnant. I prayed to God. To make me not pregnant to make me, you know, I mean, just things to try to help you. And, um, that wasn't the reason. It was really the, the nun really did it for me. The only thing I do when you think of a God thing, is ever since Tina was diagnosed, I go to the Serenity Prayer because there's [00:53:00] so much you don't have control over.

[00:53:01] So I probably have said the Serenity Prayer, and I'm not exaggerating. A couple thousand times, you know, when I can't sleep at night. And throughout her whole illness and through since then and that sort of thing, um, so much just goes over and over and over in your mind. And the Serenity prayer. In fact, my sister gave me a, a little plaque and it has it, and, um, I do believe in that, you know, God help me, you know, and whatever God is, whatever that higher power is.

[00:53:25] Um, and that helps. That's the only prayer. I I say. I don't do the Hail Mary, I don't do the, our father, I don't, you know, I don't do any of those things. So yeah. 

[00:53:32] Marbree: Who physically took you to church if your parents didn't go? We walked and, and it was basically just turn you out off. You go to church, you're expected to go, and you were good children.

[00:53:41] Beautifully wins was like 50 

[00:53:42] Kris: cents, whatever. Yes. And then we walked home, whether it was winter, no matter what the season was, we, you know, especially if you're gonna receive, you have your confirmation. You had to go to church at that time. But the four of us would go. Um, but again, my parents were loving and listening.

[00:53:55] They just didn't, if you're doing things that are dishonest or, or doing things [00:54:00] that are not appropriate and everything, church isn't gonna change that. I mean, once a week, going for an hour, it's not gonna change that. You gotta live your life every day and treat people the way you wanna be treated. So I don't, I don't know.

[00:54:10] I want people to be loving, kind, and be respectful. 

[00:54:13] Marbree: Yeah. You've been through some pretty big challenges in your life. 

[00:54:17] Kris: Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:18] Marbree: Other than the Serenity Prayer, how have you gotten through it or through them? 

[00:54:21] Kris: Um, family, friends, for Bill and I, it's working together. It's lots of yelling and screaming, lots of crying, lots of, um, knowing that you need to go get help, um, that you can't individually or maybe as a couple do it on your own.

[00:54:38] Um, me going to school, in fact, somebody asked me this, one of the couples who knows some of our issues back then, he said, how, how are you guys doing? How are you getting? And I said, me getting my master's degree in social work help me deal with stuff in my life that was incredibly challenging. Not that I could treat myself or whatever, but [00:55:00] understanding that life has its challenges.

[00:55:02] 'cause I saw people have terrible challenges and deal with the stuff that you have to deal with, whether it's for Bill, for stuff in the past that you haven't, you know, grief or whatever. And um, and certainly with. Tina's illness. That was, that's definitely the worst thing that's, that's happened. And you just can't believe it's happened.

[00:55:19] You can't believe that your child is gonna go before you. And we have sought counseling. Um, we're okay, but we are just, you just can't believe that you, it just is there. It's, it'll always be there. It'll never ever be gone. You just live with it. It's like anything in our lives. And how do you deal with it?

[00:55:37] I'm fortunate enough that I have the family and the friends and the people who surround us and shore during that time just shored us up. Just kept, you know, emailing or texting and we would send, uh, you know, an email like a Tina update every couple of months. So people weren't calling us. I, I could not deal with all of that.

[00:55:57] So you have to find out what you need. Like, even on [00:56:00] the anniversary, people know, don't call us. You don't need to know anything. Just a few texts and things like that. And that's nice. And Bill and I, you know, we. We have learned, we, we've seen a counselor down here a couple of times in the last five years just to help us.

[00:56:14] 'cause you get, you get to points, you know, you get to a point in your life and all of a sudden something doesn't feel right. You just gotta get to, you know, how, how do we get past where we are right now? And so much of it's grief. So when we say, how do you get through it, if you don't, ha I've said this to Bill, to my friends, I go, how people get through some difficult times in their life, but especially the loss of a child.

[00:56:33] How you get through that without people who care about you. I have no idea. I, I would be in a mental institution if I didn't have the people that you can cry in front of or. You can talk about, and you can, and we laugh about things. Things that were so funny. And she was so intelligent. I love that these people knew her and they saw what she went through.

[00:56:51] Many of these people saw what she went through and had nothing but love and respect for her. And I cherish, I just cherish that. But if I had advice for anybody. You [00:57:00] better hang on to the people who love you and care about you because there might be a time in your life where and and vice versa, be there for them when something is terrible.

[00:57:08] Yeah. Because the good times end up being good. 

[00:57:09] Marbree: Well that segues beautifully into my final question for you. If you had all the world's attention for up to one minute, what would you say that you would like people to take to heart? Wow, 

[00:57:20] Kris: that's a tough question. Uh, I dunno why this is the first thing that's coming to mind.

[00:57:24] Um, treat people the way you wanna be treated. You know, treat people that way. Family understanding that for me, for Bill, family is everything. And so you can be angry with somebody in your family. You can be, and I mean your immediate family. I talk about all your cousins, all your, but try to repair those relationships as much as you can because in the end, they may be the people that, that are gonna show you up and you're gonna be the person to shore them up too.

[00:57:50] And have fun. Have fun in life. Dance when you can, uh, sing when you can because. As my brain is probably gonna more and more deteriorate, but I'll remember those [00:58:00] songs. I remember Bill's mother who had Alzheimer's, and I put a Frank Sinatra CD in and she couldn't remember. She didn't know who she was. She didn't know who we were.

[00:58:07] She didn't, she knew nothing. And Frank Sinatra came on and she started singing the lyrics to every single song. And it was like she's in there and that's the one thing she is capable of remembering and enjoy. It wasn't just, she sang it. She enjoyed every moment of that. I pictured that me someday, because my family, we get together and we sing.

[00:58:29] We can't sing now, don't understand, we can't sing, but we do sing. And so I think that those cherish memories of that and thinking of her doing that, and that's something she could remember. It's, you know, live your life, live your life. Stop bitching and moaning about everything in your life because it's gonna go by so darn fast.

[00:58:47] All of a sudden, you're 40, 30 didn't bother me. 40 didn't bother me, 50 didn't bother me. 60 didn't bother me. 70. You kind of go, Ooh, I'm on the tail end here. And I don't mean it negatively, but recognize it. You know, I don't need to go out and do something [00:59:00] outrageous. I don't need to just, but recognize it.

[00:59:02] Cherish what you do have in your life and the people that you have in your life because you know, we're losing 'em. We're losing our people. You know, we've had friends that have passed away. I've already lost a sister. Cherish. Cherish those friendships and the, and that, that family. 

[00:59:15] Marbree: Yeah. Kris, thank you very much.

[00:59:17] You've been very generous in sharing, sharing some difficult stories. Thank you. 

[00:59:21] Kris: Yeah, you're welcome. Welcome.

[00:59:26] Marbree: Kris, thank you again. I hope that the years ahead are filled with singing and laughter and the love of good friends. Now, if you'll all excuse me, I'm going to call a friend and bemoan the loss of neighborhood welcome wagons and social groups. Fun fact, the Welcome Wagon business switched to mail and online offerings because people stopped being home during the day, so there was no one there to answer when they came calling.

[00:59:53] Now that so many work from home and there's a craving for community, might it be time for a new [01:00:00] iteration of an old concept. Business idea. Anyone? To those of you listening, thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed this, please leave a review in Spotify or Apple Podcasts and hit that follow button. These things help others find the podcast and they mean the world to me.

[01:00:20] Share this with anyone you think would love it. Or learn something from it and keep coming back from more of the words we've heard. This podcast would not be possible without the editing and production brilliance of Cori Orak. The inspiration of my parents, and a 2001 conversation with my grandmother.

[01:00:38] My thanks to you all.

[01:00:43] So what are the words we've heard? Accept people where they are, not where you want them to be. You may not agree with where people are, but treat them with the respect they deserve. Parenting is the hardest job. [01:01:00] Hang on to the people who love you and care about you. Have fun. Dance when you can. Sing, when you can. Live your life.