Ep. 12: Art, Adventure, and an Unscripted Life with Dale

📝 Show Notes

In the season finale of The Words We’ve Heard, host Marbree Sullivan sits down with her own mother, Dale, for a conversation that traces an unconventional and deeply meaningful life—from post-war Pennsylvania to San Francisco, Tokyo, and beyond.

Together, they explore Dale’s childhood in a family of educators, her early love of dance, studying French in Belgium and art history in Florence, and the challenges and joys that came with raising a family and following her husband’s career around the country and abroad. From earning her CPA as a young mother to curating an international print show in Japan, Dale’s story weaves together artistry, resilience, and quiet courage.

It’s a heartfelt reflection on change, compromise, and creating a life that, while not linear, has been entirely her own and wholly wonderful.

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Transcript

Marbree: [00:00:00] Welcome to the words we've heard. This is Marbree Sullivan, and each week I sit down with a baby boomer to capture their stories, ask for a bit of advice, and hold on to the memories of the post World War II generation. Join me as we journey through everyday lives and extraordinary stories.

Before we get into today's discussion, I want to let you know that I'll be taking a hiatus from the words we've heard, and we'll be back in a few months with the next season. So please hit that follow button so that new episodes appear in your feed when they are ready. Having now done a full season, I've learned a lot about this whole podcasting world, including the cost of keeping this going.

If you've enjoyed this and want more of it. Please consider contributing. There's a link in the show notes to buy me a coffee.com where you can contribute [00:01:00] whatever amount you'd like. Anything that comes in goes directly to the cost of creating and maintaining this podcast. If a financial contribution isn't in the cards, please consider helping with some feedback or a referral to a baby boomer with a story to tell.

You'll find a link in the show notes where you can contribute thoughts and your connections. And I will be genuinely grateful for whatever contribution you are able to make. Thank you.

Today we are rounding out the first season of the words we've heard with someone who has taught me more than can fit into a podcast. Someone whose life, like so many, has taken unexpected turns. It's a life she'll tell you has been wonderful. From a small town childhood to an expat life in Tokyo, freelance calligraphy to big firm accounting.

Friendships that have survived decades and distance, a marriage of more than 50 years, and so much travel that we couldn't possibly fit it into this discussion. Dale Jewett Sullivan [00:02:00] has been lucky enough to live out a few dreams and, she brought me into this world and she's the best mother I could dream of.

Thank you, mom, for doing this with me. 

Dale: You're welcome. Be kind.

Marbree: Oh, I'll do my best. I obviously know many of your stories. And I know that some of them are worth telling and are interesting. Let's start with where I start with everyone though. And that's obviously your childhood. You moved when you were, was it three years old? 

Dale: Yes. 

Marbree: To Pennsylvania? Correct. 

Dale: Ah, we were already living in Pennsylvania.

I was born in Portsmouth, Virginia because my father was in the Navy and that's where he was stationed. But we moved back to my father's hometown and we were in a rental house first. My earliest memory is when we moved from that house to the house that my parents [00:03:00] built on Park Drive, that you remember, it was a, a cold day, but it had been January thaw and there was this long plank or series of them from the road directly across from the front of the house all the way across.

And you may remember that was fairly long to the front door. And I just remember looking across and seeing the house and walking the plank, 

Marbree: and then you lived your entire childhood in that house. 

Dale: Yes. 

Marbree: Was your brother born at that point? 

Dale: Yes. Yeah, he had already been born, so I was going on four, but I was still three.

Yeah. 

Marbree: And then your sister was how many years? Younger? 

Dale: Six. So we were living in that house when she was born. 

Marbree: Right. Okay. So three of you, of which you're the oldest. 

Dale: Yes. How big was your school, do you remember? My graduating class was 228 and um, it was the same high school, not the same building, but the same high school system that my father and aunts.

Knuck attended. I had actually some of the same teachers that they had. 

Marbree: What was that like? 

Dale: Well, [00:04:00] there was a certain amount of pressure, as you can imagine. Um, especially because they had all graduated at the top of their classes. Now, to be fair, you know, my father's class probably had 60 in it. Do you feel like you lived up to it?

Mm. In high school, I suppose? For the most part, yes. I mean, I wasn't first in my class or second, but I was in the top 20. I don't know how my grandmother felt about it that, um, she really stressed academic achievement. So there was always that emphasis on school and doing well in school and to the point that when my brother, who didn't quite accept that particular pressure, uh, or type of motivation.

Felt that she needed to do something to encourage him to improve. And so she promised a dollar for every A that we got on our report, or he got on his report card. And then my boy cousins who were next in line, they got the same offer. Well, eventually she had to realize that she couldn't give them the offer without giving it to me.

And then of course, she realized that I was the only one making money. And so the whole thing was [00:05:00] silly. 

Marbree: Did she live there in town? 

Dale: Yes. Yep. My grandparents lived in the house, uh, great big house that my father and aunts and uncle grew up in. Um, my father was not born there. My, my grandfather did move a little bit back then, but they were there from the time my father was little.

Marbree: Did you have any aunts and uncles around as well? 

Dale: No, no, they all lived in other places, but we did see them, you know, regularly. There was, um, my father's cousin and his wife lived near in Clark Summit and she had also been one of my father's teachers. So there were some dynamics at play there that were kind of interesting and she taught in the high school when I was there.

Marbree: How big was Clark Summit when you were growing up? 

Dale: Small. It was a small town. 

Marbree: What was your relationship like with your grandparents? 

Dale: Oh, it was very good. It was, I, as the oldest grandchild, I was lucky to have that proximity to them. My grandmother taught me Latin when I was in elementary school. I mean, [00:06:00] I, I would go there some days after school and I'd have my Latin lesson.

I never took it in school, but I did it then. And my grandfather, he, well, they both liked mathematics, but, but my grandfather liked puzzles and to this day it frustrates me that I cannot recall. How you add from left to right a column of numbers using nines. And I remember he taught me this trick that I used in school one time that was just, and I was, woo.

How did you do that? I cannot remember. I have Googled it and I cannot find it. Huh? 

Marbree: I think we should perhaps ask ai Maybe so, 

Dale: but it was pretty cool. You could take a, you know, a column of four, number four digit numbers and add them across and left to right. And maybe, you know, four numbers in the column.

So it was, um, yeah, it was, it was a cool trick. 

Marbree: What was your grandfather's profession? 

Dale: He couldn't wait to get away from the farm up there in Redwood and he ended up, well first of all, he went to St. Lawrence University and graduated there with only having finished eighth grade in school. [00:07:00] So, but that's where he met my grandmother.

And, um, he ended up working, it might have been Montgomery Ward at first, but eventually his career was with Kresge. Which became Kmart. But he managed the retail stores 

Marbree: eighth grade education, followed by a bachelor's degree. 

Dale: Yes. 

Marbree: And managed retail. 

Dale: Yes. Yep. 

Marbree: And followed four children. 

Dale: Yes. Yep. And he, he liked to tell jokes and he liked to laugh at his own jokes.

And um, and both of my grandparents were tournament bridge players. Master Tournament Bridge players. So did they 

Marbree: teach bridge to you and your siblings? 

Dale: Absolutely. Some of us were better at grasping it than others. My sister is the only one who really followed in that bridge master direction. But yeah, we all learned to play.

And my grandmother, who also went to St. Lawrence and graduated the same year, she taught Latin and Greek and math. She taught algebra and trigonometry, I think were the the two main ones she taught. 

Marbree: As you were growing up where, you know, early post-war years. [00:08:00] Was there any feel of that post-World War II boom that others of your generation remember from their childhood, you know, that loads of children running around, families booming?

Dale: Yes. That house that, um, I walked the plank to get to from the very, at the very first time was in a little neighborhood. There was a development, it had been, um, a fruit orchard. And, um, a developer bought the land and built all those cute little houses. I don't know what you call them, just, you know, three bedroom ranches in this, this little area.

And, um, yes, it was all, lots of, lots of kids and we played The age didn't seem to matter. We all played together. I mean, I remember playing Kick the Can when I was six with these high school kids. So yeah, it was, um, definitely playing with lots of kids, boys and girls. And dinner time. My, my mother had a bell and so she would ring the bell when it was time for dinner.

And our dinner time was fairly rigid because my father went back to the office afterwards. But the other kids' parents all said, when you hear the Jew's bell [00:09:00] time to come home. That then translated to later in the evening. 'cause we would go back out after dinner and the other kids would too, and, but my mother would ring that bell.

Marbree: What was your mother's reputation in the neighborhood? Was she well liked? 

Dale: I think so. I think people recognized her as being an assertive mother, if you will. But yes, she had, she had a pair of sunglasses that were very unusual for the time. So a lot of times people would say, oh, your mother is the one with those really strange sunglasses.

Marbree: It's sort of wonderful that that's what they said about her as opposed to, oh, your mother is Dr. Jewett's wife. 

Dale: Well, obviously that happened from time to time. 

Marbree: Yeah. Were there ever comments about her fashion? 

Dale: I don't recall. She was always very fashion conscious and, you know, she missed New York when it came to shopping for clothes.

But at one point there was a dress shop in Scranton that was, it was the kind of place where the clothing was not sized, it was just the piece of clothing and designer level stuff. And then you went in for [00:10:00] fittings and it was fitted to your body. And, um, my mother spent some money there. She had some beautiful clothes.

She did. She did. And when I, when it was time for me to have my senior year prom dress, I got my dress there. 

Marbree: Oh, nice. Where did your parents meet? 

Dale: You know, they met because they were both at Syracuse. My father wa was in medical school at the time, I believe, but they didn't actually meet at the university.

They met through, um, mutual friends, like in Atlantic City or someplace. I don't, I'm not even sure where. But the connection with Syracuse. 

Marbree: What did she study there? 

Dale: Um, at the time it was called Home Economics. 

Marbree: Didn't she also have some kind of a science field? 

Dale: Yes. Yeah, she, um, she did concentrate in chemistry, but within the home ec program.

And at one time I remember she said that she would've liked to have taught chemistry, say at Marywood College locally, but she primarily did volunteer things and put in a lot of hours. 

Marbree: We'll get to that, but I wanna back up a little bit. Remind me, was she from Long Island? 

Dale: She was from Rockville Center, long [00:11:00] Island, and when she went to Syracuse, the first one in her family, I'm fairly certain my grandparents put her on a train and sent her off, and so she went all by herself.

And showed up on campus and heard there was a swimming pool and thought she'd head over there and have a swim. It turned out it was the men's swimming pool and they swam naked in that pool, so she got out of there fairly quickly and um, probably never went back there. 

Marbree: All right, so back then to your childhood and your mother volunteering, and your father, we should say, was the town physician, essentially.

Is that right? Um, 

Dale: well, he, not the, his senior partner was actually the junior partner when my father first joined that practice. When my father. Was trying to decide what to do after high school. His family doctor said to him, if you study medicine and you know, do everything you need to do and you come back here, you have a place in our practice.

So that's what my father did. He got the Navy to put him through medical school and served [00:12:00] his time in the Navy and, um, came back and, um, joined that practice. 

Marbree: And what kind of volunteering did your mother do? 

Dale: She started out, if I recall, um, with the women's. Club Now I don't really know what they did in terms of their activities, but my mother became the third vice president of the State of Pennsylvania Federation of Women's Clubs and at one point, there's actually a picture of this somewhere in in a box, she went to this convention.

LA And so she took the first cross country flight from New York to la then later she did, um, the junior league. 

Marbree: When did you start ballet? 

Dale: When I was four and I took ballet for six years. And I think I was therefore at fourth grade when the teacher of the local school decided she was not going to teach anymore in Clark Summit.

And um, you could still take classes if you wanted in her Scranton studio, but my mother didn't wanna drive me there. So I stopped at that point, but that, that year [00:13:00] when I was only 10 horrifyingly, we learned to dance on point 

Marbree: and 

Dale: then 

Marbree: you had to give it up. 

Dale: Yeah, that was hard. I really, I loved it. 

Marbree: Yeah.

Was there no other way, no other girl you could have carpooled with or anything like that to get there? 

Dale: There was nobody, I, I recall having the same interest. A lot of it was just, you know, this is what little girls did as an activity. And so I don't recall anyone else having the same level of interest.

And my mother, she said, well, you could take the bus if you wanted to, but you don't wanna take the bus. So, you know, it was, she kind of sabotaged me on that one. But 

Marbree: you came back to it eventually though. 

Dale: Yes, I did. When was that? Well, well, it's funny, at Syracuse, um, I had a sorority sister who was from New York City and she had danced or taken classes in New York.

And so she found this class in Syracuse and she said, you know, it's a really good class. Do you wanna come? Well, I hadn't taken ballet classes since I was 10, and I was way out of my league way, way out of my league. But I, I knew it was something that I [00:14:00] wanted to do again. And then at some point I ran into someone when Dad and I were living in Connecticut.

Who wanted to do it. And so we took an adult class and it was very basic, but it got me back interested in it. And then again in New Jersey when we moved there. And then finally when we moved to Vermont, I found a really good studio and a really good teacher. And after that I felt like I could attend a class wherever.

So that was, that was fun. 

Marbree: Didn't you dance in Vermont with the Chamber Ballet? 

Dale: The Vermont Chamber Ballet I did. Did, yes. Yeah, it was, it was fun. It was, that's one of the, you know, one of those little dreams that actually for a while I got to live, 

Marbree: which is pretty damn cool. Yeah. All right. Back to childhood or youth, let's say, were you a cheerleader?

I. 

Dale: Yes, yes, I was. Yep. My, uh, my aunts were, you know, field hockey and basketball players, even though my one aunt was even shorter than I am. But, you know, it was a small school. You couldn't get away with those things. So they played field hockey and they encouraged me to do that. So I tried it and I think the coach, [00:15:00] 'cause they, she knew my aunts.

Allowed me to participate for that one year, my freshman year in high school because of them. But I was terrible at it and it was just, I was just really filling time to like a tryout for cheerleading, because cheerleading had a dance like aspect to it. 

Marbree: What other activities in your youth filled your days or your afterschool hours?

Dale: I read a lot. I joined brownies, um, when I was in elementary school and did that through, you know, girl Scouts into I think roughly eighth grade. One year I took baton lessons. That was not a particularly successful endeavor, you know, ballet up through age 10. I loved swimming. So that there was a summer thing.

Marbree: Where did you swim in the summers? 

Dale: Two places. My parents belonged to a country club that had golf and a really good sized swimming pool. But also my grandparents had a lake house that we went every summer. Not a place that my mother particularly was excited about going to, but they were happy to leave me there for however long I felt like staying, or my [00:16:00] grandmother and grandfather were happy to have me.

But it was, you know, going back to that idea of achievement. It was, make sure you could swim to the raft, then make sure you could swim to the island, then you could swim across the lake. Um, and then you had to swim over and back. Going one way meant somebody had to go in a boat with you of course, or alongside you.

Um, and that those little landmarks determined when you got to drive a particular boat. There was a motorboat, there was a kayak, there was a, um, St. Lawrence skiff, which is you use oars. It's built like a canoe. It's bigger than a standard canoe, I think. And then we had an electric boat, which was pretty cool.

Marbree: What were those summers like? 

Dale: Yeah, it was fun. It really was. The girl cousins were younger, you know, so I, I really, it was mostly my boy cousins and my second cousins that I did things with. You know, I remember getting up with one of my cousins early in the morning. He was an early riser too, and we would go out, he would catch frogs and I didn't mind catching frogs, but I hated using them for [00:17:00] bait.

But we would go out in the boat and fish and bring back breakfast. Did you learn to gut a fish? I did, but I didn't like it, and so I never did it more than that. Once or twice. Okay. Here it is. 

Marbree: I'm sure your grandmother wanted to be sure it was a skill that you'd perfected before you were allowed to do something else, 

Dale: right?

Marbree: When did you study in Belgium? 

Dale: Between my junior and senior years in high school. So it was just a summer program. 

Marbree: How did that come about? 

Dale: To some extent, my French teacher in high school, well I had two French teachers in high school, but the one for the, the lower levels was from Belgium. And she was someone I always was, you know, kept in touch with and, and enjoyed as a teacher.

She was the one who encouraged me to go to Belgium rather than France. I was very interested in French and studying French and learning to speak it. I applied and was accepted and I went. 

Marbree: How was that for you? 

Dale: At first it was lonely. It was, we met a group, uh, I mean we had a group that was formed. We all departed from Hartford and [00:18:00] we were placed with families in the area of Belgium.

So we did some trips as a group and you know, I got to know a few of them a little bit. I was very shy. It was one of those things that when somebody said she's a cheerleader, it was just, yeah, not, I was shy and the family I was placed with, their only daughter was in her twenties. She had a job. They lived above a tobacco shop, so that could be a little lonely, you know, where other families were taking their students to various places and showing them around.

This family did not do that. They were in it for the money. So that was, but it, it was a good learning experience, I guess, and that, that's where I developed my taste for Nutella, 

Marbree: a good learning experience. Uh, in what sense? 

Dale: I. Oh, well, seeing a whole different way of life. So different from my own. Um, you know, I had a very comfortable childhood and this was a much [00:19:00] different environment where, I mean, they had this little tobacco shop and they were different from, you know, people I'd ever known.

Marbree: Did you communicate with them exclusively in French? 

Dale: Yes. Yeah, they, they were not a family who would have been learning English. 

Marbree: Did you develop any friendships or connections during that time that lasted? 

Dale: No. We traveled a little bit together in the beginning, and then later we took a trip around Switzerland and France and Belgium on a bus.

Well, I'd had very long hair when I arrived. I don't recall why, but at some point during the trip I cut it all off. I had been wearing it in a bun most of the time, but I cut it to sort of a chin length page. Boy, I don't recall if one of, I think one of the other members of the group cut it for me. And it was amazing how all of a sudden people saw me who didn't before, you know, it just made me look a little bit older, a little bit more confident maybe.

I don't 

Marbree: know. How did you wind up at Syracuse? 

Dale: Well, I only [00:20:00] applied to four schools 'cause we didn't back then apply to a whole lot of them. You know, it was, you had to do each one individually and you had to get yourself to those campuses for interviews if if need be. And you know, I was waitlisted at one, rejected at another.

Accepted it, the other two. And between those other two, I just said I will have more options at Syracuse because it was a bigger university and, and you know, that worked out for me. I was, I was reluctant because my parents had both graduated from Syracuse and my uncle and my aunt and this other cousin by marriage, you know, so it was just.

I'd already been through the high school thing with my father and aunts and uncles. I wasn't sure I wanted to do that at Syracuse, but I finally realized that it was a bigger place and very few connections would've been made to that. 

Marbree: What did you want to study? 

Dale: Art. My mother convinced me that I would be much better off with liberal arts, so that's what I did.

My freshman year. I took a class for non-art majors as a result of that class. I was able [00:21:00] to get into, um, a basic drawing class in the art school. And you know, that's one of those turning points that I, in some ways wished I had transferred from liberal arts to the art school. But honestly, I don't know that I would've been good enough to really be successful.

So my compromise was I studied art history and I loved it. 

Marbree: Did you have any idea what you would do with that degree? 

Dale: Absolutely none. I had one teacher who, you know, he tried to convince us that, you know, you could get jobs in galleries back then. Of course, that probably would've meant as a secretary. I had no idea what I was gonna do.

Marbree: Did you continue with any language studies 

Dale: at Syracuse? Yes. Yeah. The French I had in high school got me into an advanced class, and that was hard, I will say. But at least I'd already read some of the novels in French and then I switched to Italian. 

Marbree: Why? 

Dale: I wanted to go to, uh, Florence. I wanted to do the semester in Italy, which Syracuse offered.

Marbree: And did you? 

Dale: Yes, 

Marbree: spoiler. I know you did. 

Dale: Yes. Yes [00:22:00] I did. Yes. It was wonderful. 

Marbree: Which year 

Dale: was that? That was the first semester of my senior year at Syracuse. 

Marbree: Okay. What 

Dale: did you like about studying in Florence? Well, I loved the courses. I loved the, the atmosphere. At that time, it was not common for many Italians to speak English in restaurants and stores and and so forth.

So learning Italian was important and so I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the people in my program. You know, I loved the coffee shops. I loved just wandering around certain parts of the city. There was a, what had been, I guess, a monastery that had individual cells. It's, I think it's called. San Marcos and I went there with your father in 2009 and it was just a Taurus trap now, whereas at that time you could go in and you could just sit down in one of the little cells and all the cells were painted.

Um, had frescos by, um, I wanna say fra lipi. I might be wrong on that, but it was just a really serene place. And I love the families I was with. I was with two very nice families, very different, but I [00:23:00] love them both. 

Marbree: There's so much more I wanna ask, but in the interest of time, I'm gonna move us along.

Thinking back to high school and the college years, what had you done for work? 

Dale: Well, my first job obviously was babysitting. 'cause that's what we did back then. There were summers I worked in my father's office just doing administrative duties. I. Kind of filling in for the people who were there regularly and they took vacations during the summer.

When I was at Syracuse, I got a job at the bookstore as a cashier Growing up, my family felt it was our jobs to be students, you know? That's where we had to focus and concentrate our energy. 

Marbree: Remind me, was at the beginning of your sophomore year that you met my father. 

Dale: Yes, it was indeed we were goons. The, um, Syracuse at that time had a, an orientation program for freshmen that was made up of a goon squad, which was under the ages of the Traditions committee.

But that's how we met. We were both goons, you shepherded your group of, of people to various freshman events, orientation events, and then afterwards you [00:24:00] would go the goons themselves, not the freshmen would go to some bar or a party somewhere. So we met at. A bar where all the goons were congregating, 

Marbree: were you introduced through other goons who knew each other?

Dale: Yes, yes. One of, um, my former cottage mates, if you will, she and I went together to this bar and your father and this other guy were there, and she knew the other guy, and we were in a table and this friend carried her own little flask of gin. And then we would just order, I'm not proud of this, we would just order a bitter lemon and then mix our own drinks under the table.

Well, your father thought that was pretty damn cool and the rest is history. 

Marbree: Before I move on, is there anything else about those college years that sticks out to you that's, you know, that you wanna share? 

Dale: I was a member of a sorority that was influential in later years in my life. I made very good friends who are still very good friends.

Um, and I [00:25:00] think that was important. I was reluctant to go through that. Of course, my mother wanted me to be in her sorority and um, was very disappointed when. That's not the direction I took. I met lots of wonderful women, not just those college years, but later in life as a result of belonging to that organization.

That was a strong influence of my college years. I did synchronize swimming. You didn't ask about college sports. 

Marbree: I didn't shame on me, 

Dale: which was again, an exhibition sport, not a competitive sport at Syracuse, but it was there. And um, that was, I love swimming and I love gymnastics and so, and dance, and so that was, that was a good fit for me.

I. So I did that. 

Marbree: We're talking about the late 1960s, early 1970s, an era when you've got Vietnam War era protests, you've got women, when were they doing things like burning brass? 

Dale: Uh, yes. Okay. So that was kind of my juniorish year. And, uh, my roommate at the time was preparing for her wedding. So this was a very kind of weird thing for [00:26:00] me.

So she'd be in our room. She had her sewing machine. She was sewing, she was making her own wedding dress. Meanwhile, I mean, almost out the window you can see that there's all of this other unrest, protests and so forth. And one of my other sorority sisters was very much political in that sense. And so, you know, she would drag me to these various things.

So yes, that was, that was a part of that experience. There were times when I resented it because classes were canceled. You know, we're paying for this education, but if we want to show our, our concern for the world at large, we had to participate in some of these other things. I couldn't ignore it, but it wasn't something that I took to heart that whole political environment.

Yeah. 

Marbree: When you graduated, what happened? Where'd you go? 

Dale: Ah, well, first I went home to my parents' house and then I had some friends who had moved to Boston and they already had jobs and, um, I had no, I what idea what to do. My mother wanted me to stay home and find a job and join the junior league, and that did not [00:27:00] appeal to me.

So one of those friends was looking for a third roommate, so I went and I moved in to that apartment. Bought a mattress and I don't remember what else, and got a job. It wasn't anything significant. It was a job. I did eventually, I worked for a temp agency at one point. I did eventually get a job at MIT.

That was, that was kind of fun. They had, um, an art department, if you will, and there was the man who was running it. It was a center for Advanced Visual Studies. His name was J Kish. And of course it was a, it was an administrative job, but you know, I get to place calls to people like I am pay. So it was interesting environment.

I mean, the, the work itself was, was nothing. I mean, I wasn't really doing much related to art history or, or contemporary art, but it was an interesting environment to be in. 

Marbree: Did you have any idea of what you wanted from your life, what you wanted to do or where you wanted to be? Anything. 

Dale: Nope. For such a linear person, it's odd to me looking back that I never had [00:28:00] a direct path 

Marbree: and what was happening in the relationship with my father at that point.

Dale: We were on and off throughout our years at Syracuse, but after I moved to Boston, we reconnected. And just, yeah. At that point became a couple. 

Marbree: And then he proposed that first year after you had graduated, right? 

Dale: Yes. Yeah. 

Marbree: Within that year. 

Dale: Yeah. And then we were married, you know, a few months later and, uh, as, as all responsible young adults do, we quit our jobs.

And, um, we got in the car, we took sleeping bags and coolers, and we had a, an eight, it was an eight track player, I'm trying to remember now, and just took off across the country 

Marbree: with any plan at 

Dale: all. Well, the original plan was that we were going to move to New Orleans. And of course when we got there, although we had a good time, we realized that's not where we want to live.

Um, so then we proceeded on our trip and when we got to San Francisco, we decided that's where we wanted to live. So we did, we finished our trip. We did come back, um, home 'cause we had to pick up some furniture and, you know, some wedding gifts and stuff, you know, so we had got a little U-Haul. And um, oh, [00:29:00] and I had a parakeet at that time and the parakeet had to come too.

So we went back to San Francisco with our U-Haul and found an apartment and we were there for a year and a half to two years. 

Marbree: Wait, did you drive out initially? 

Dale: Yes. 

Marbree: And then drive back to get all that stuff, or did you leave the car? Yes. Yes. Okay. So you, you went back and forth a bit. 

Dale: Yeah, we did. And then, um, packed it all up again and, uh, came back east.

We decided that we, um, we'd missed one of our friend's weddings and we felt badly about that. And I missed my grandfather's funeral and I felt badly about that. And back then it was just, you didn't just jump on a plane the way we do now, so we just decided we wanted to be back closer to friends and family.

So yeah, we moved back and that's when at that point, dad had also decided he wanted to go to graduate school. So 

Marbree: then from San Francisco, was it Maine first and then Connecticut? 

Dale: Yes. We were in Maine for not even a year. I mean, dad did two semesters at the University of Maine and I worked in the foreign language department at the university, and also I was, by this time I was doing freelance calligraphy.

I had started that in San Francisco, you know, which of course [00:30:00] there's little call for, as there was back then, but, so I had a job actually with the Penobscot. History Museum or something like that, doing labels for display pieces. But I also worked at the university during that time, and then dad transferred to the University of Connecticut.

Marbree: You get to Connecticut and at this point workwise, you're still just kind of doing whatever you can and. Enjoying the freelance calligraphy. 

Dale: Yep. I was still doing the freelance calligraphy, and I got a, uh, I remember there was a, an individual, I must have been interviewing for something. He said, you need to develop your own script, your own font.

Uh, they didn't use the word font back then, but basically that's what it was. I. That just, I couldn't even conceive of that. The job I got was in a doctor's office. I'd had that experience and met someone there who became a good friend during that time. So yeah, dad went to school and I went to, uh, this medical practice on a daily basis.

Marbree: What were you doing for fun throughout your early twenties? 

Dale: I've always been a reader, but we went, we went out, you know, to [00:31:00] various clubs and you know, in, in Connecticut we went to a coffee shop where Bonnie Rait was singing. I remember another time seeing Sea Train and they were in little venues. So, you know, we did that kind of thing.

Obviously depending upon where we were living. There was skiing in the winter and um, swimming in the summer. So. 

Marbree: And ballet. 

Dale: And ballet, yes. 

Marbree: And then from Connecticut, the series of moves that follows was all tied to dad's work. Is that right? 

Dale: Yes. The move from San Francisco was, was personal. It just a choice that we made.

But once dad finished graduate school, then it was all his career driven. 

Marbree: Yeah. So from Connecticut was New Jersey next, right? 

Dale: Yes. Yeah, it was at that point that he got the job with Gallo, 

Marbree: and then you had my brother. 

Dale: Yes. 

Marbree: And then you had me. 

Dale: Yes. But by that time we were living in New Jersey. You were both born there?

Marbree: Yes. Were you working before Gavin was born? 

Dale: No, I mean other than that job that I'd had in the medical practice in Connecticut, 'cause I became pregnant while we were living in Connecticut. 

Marbree: [00:32:00] Ah, okay. 

Dale: Yeah. And then we moved and once we moved, we decided that number one, I didn't need to work and there wasn't something that I was particularly driven to do.

Um, if there were, you know, opportunities to do calligraphy, I would do that. But other than that, I wasn't looking for a job at that point. 

Marbree: Of those places that we lived in my early years. So New Jersey, Vermont, upstate New York. Which one did you like or which one did you not like? 

Dale: Oh, I like them all for, for different reasons.

Um, for those different times in our lives where we lived in New Jersey was far enough away from the sort of congested areas closer to New York City. I mean, it is called the Garden State after all. And we were close to a lake. It was a nice little town, you know, we made some friends there. One couple we still keep in touch with.

So it was, you know, it was, uh, we were happy there. Um, when we moved to Vermont, I did have a little bit of a culture adjustment in that there weren't stores. You know, and this was before online shopping of course. So, you know, trying to just buy [00:33:00] shoes for Gavin was, was a challenge at first. You know, eventually we found our way around and, and we managed just fine.

And I loved Vermont and we made good friends there as well and kept in touch with some of them years later and still do. So, you know, now, Syracuse, I was, by that time I was in graduate school, not initially, but it didn't take long before I, I started graduate school, so it went back to Syracuse University to do that, so I was busy.

You know, doing that, it was close to my family, you know, it was only a two hour drive. I liked that aspect of it. Winters were cold and long. One of my college friends moved back to the area while we were still living there, so that was good. So yeah, they all had the, they all had positive things about them for those times that we were living there.

Marbree: You started graduate school when I started kindergarten, right? 

Dale: Yes, yes. That's right. 

Marbree: In a field of study, completely different to anything you had done before, correct? 

Dale: That is correct, yes. Yep. Your father kind of encouraged me to take that new direction. Although I hadn't started [00:34:00] taking over doing our tax returns, he was still doing our tax returns at that point.

I took care of all of our, our financial record keeping. It was clear I was the better of the two to do that job, and I still do it. So there was just something that, you know, we talked about it and thought, you know, this might be a good direction to take that it might be something I could be good at. And specifically accounting.

And at the same time, there was an employee at at Gallo who was killed in a plane accident, just in the course of business travel. I remember feeling like I needed to be able to support us if something happened to dad. You know, I needed to be able to do something beyond get a job in a doctor's office.

So that was also part of the motivation. And as I said, dad was very encouraging. And so yes, I ended up getting a Master's in accounting. I. 

Marbree: Did you graduate just before we moved to Colorado? 

Dale: Yes. Yeah. Yep. Because I was interviewing with companies that, um, they were big companies, so they had offices around the [00:35:00] country, although there was one that I really liked the firm, they were based in Philadelphia, and at that point we didn't know that we were going to Colorado.

We knew that there would be a change. We didn't know specifically what it was gonna be. So I kind of went through those interviews, just have that experience and maybe a connection. So when we moved to the Denver area, I was able to get interviews at, um, a couple of the firms, maybe more easily than I would've otherwise.

I was a non-traditional student at that time, and therefore a non-traditional applicant for an entry-level accounting job in a big firm. 

Marbree: And you got one. 

Dale: I did, yes. But I remember in one of the ones, one of the big firms, they tried to slot me into something else. I also remember this partner saying to me, how would you feel about reporting to these snotty nose kids who would be your superior or your manager, or whatever it was.

I remember being really offended by that. 

Marbree: Why? Because you had snotty nosed kids at home. 

Dale: Yeah. No, [00:36:00] I just felt it was demeaning to them. You know? My feeling was they're the ones with the experience. Um, I'm gonna learn what I can from them and take the direction that I need to take. 

Marbree: Yeah. I have my own memories of your years.

Working there, which are inevitably completely different to your memories. How did you feel about working at that large accounting firm? 

Dale: With children at home. Yes. It was really hard and there are a lot of things that I, I wished I'd been able to do differently to do better for the two of you. During those years, we were lucky to have good friends, neighbors who helped us out numerous times when dad was traveling, I was traveling or just working absurdly long hours, you know, and so I only lasted there for three years.

But they were important years In your development. Yours and your brothers. And so I, I have a lot of, I don't know if regrets is the right word, but wishes that I had done things better for you. Like what? Better [00:37:00] managed family time, as well as work time. Well, 

Marbree: I have no feelings of neglect. I have no feelings of.

You not having managed family time Well. 

Dale: Well, thank you. I'm, I'm glad to hear that. I, I also feel like I wasn't as sensitive to the burden it put on some of our friends, some good friends in particular. And, um, you know, I wish I could go back and change some aspects of that as well. 

Marbree: From the, the now grown child's perspective.

You're probably harder on yourself than you need to be. 

Dale: Yeah, we tend to be, I do remember in terms of, you know, the whole family dynamics when I was studying for the CPA exam, which was grueling, you know, working and, and going to that prep class when I finally got the results from the exam and being, um, in the car with you and just being crazy excited.

And you and Gavin were both really good about sharing that positive outcome. 

Marbree: I actually have a vague memory of that. Yeah. Yeah. If you were talking to somebody who were in [00:38:00] that period of life where they're working and raising children, any advice you would give them? 

Dale: Do your best to keep your priorities straight when it comes to your family and trying to do well at your job, trying to succeed and get the laundry done and the grocery shopping done.

But cut yourself some slack. Recognize that at some point you can say to your boss, I'm just not coming in on Easter Sunday and getting away with it. And the funny thing about that was the manager saying, just don't tell the others. Like they're not gonna see I'm not there. 

Marbree: How was it moving around as much as you did with developing social relationships and finding new places to take ballet classes and all of those types of things, especially in a, a world before the internet?

Dale: I have one friend who I made, you know, after many moves who said, yeah, it gets really hard always having to prove to people that you're worth knowing. And, um, it's different when you have children and you have school activities and you know, the kids interact and [00:39:00] make friends and there's a natural coming together of, of people.

And you find the ones that you identify with, enjoy, you know, their company and become friends with both as individuals, as well as couples and groups. And when you're beyond that. Stage, then it does become a little bit more difficult finding a ballet class or a place to work out and exercise. Most of the time there weren't that many options that made it that difficult and you just had to take a deep breath and walk in and say, okay, I can do this.

But it, it's always a challenge. 

Marbree: We're gonna jump ahead in your timeline to moving to Tokyo with my father who did not have as much experience living abroad. You, 

Dale: I'm remembering getting off the plane the first time and is wanting to turn around and get back on. 

Marbree: So how was the move to Japan? 

Dale: It was great.

Now, the first month was, was hard, but by the end of that first month, we had become members of the Tokyo American [00:40:00] Club and there was a great expat community and the Tokyo American Club offered art classes and excursions and activities. Um, they had a great exercise, um, facility. There were other people in the, even though we were outside of the main foreigners area, there were other expats living in our apartment block, if you will, one of whom is still a good friend.

So it, it actually ended up being a lot easier than when we moved back to the states. 

Marbree: You worked almost until you left for Japan, right? 

Dale: Yes. Yeah, and I did look into working there, including with the firm I had been with in the Denver area initially, even though I had left that firm and gone to another one before we moved to Tokyo.

But I did actually interview and it just, we both just knew that wasn't gonna happen. When I say both, I mean. The interviewer and me. I mean, it just was not gonna be a good fit. But there were just so many wonderful things to do. I mean, I studied with this, um, [00:41:00] Sumer painter and I took Japanese lessons and it was fun exploring going to so many different, not just cultural places, but types of shops, not necessarily buying things.

It was just the idea of, you know, Tokyo has. An electric town and they have a book town and they have a cooking supply town. And I mean that was just so much fun and it was so easy to get around. 

Marbree: When you were in Japan, how did you get involved with the CWHA and I suppose I should spell that out, the College Women's Association of Japan.

Dale: I don't remember exactly. But it was just one of those things that was available to, um, expat women. And I just joined and it went from there. I met some wonderful Japanese women that probably should back up a bit. The College Women's Association of Japan was formed by women who had graduated from, I think Wellesley College, and they were there as trailing spouses and um, right after the war, and they.

Set up this organization [00:42:00] and part of it was to involve women who had been educated in other countries, but were Japanese. And culturally it can be difficult to live outside of the country as a Japanese person and then return. And so this gave these Japanese women an opportunity to work with and socialize with other foreign educated women.

And they, volunteering, I don't think was a real. Big thing at that time, but that created that opportunity for both the expat women and Japanese women. And to this day, I believe every project you take on, you do with two co-chairs, one Japanese, one non-Japanese. Um, so you get to know your partner very well as a result of that working relationship.

So their biggest fundraising event is a print show. That takes place every year, um, with the exception of during Covid, but it otherwise has taken place every year since nine, sometime in the 1950s, I think. And it's, it's a premier show. It's juried and it [00:43:00] has, you know, renowned artists, at least within Japan.

And it was a wonderful experience for me, uh, you know, to work with another Japanese woman as we, we were curators of the exhibit one year. The second year that we were there and um, it was wonderful. I got to meet artists, you know, Japanese as well as non-Japanese because it wasn't exclusively Japanese print makers.

There were others, and it was a very special time in my adult life. 

Marbree: Could you ever have imagined anything like that when you were growing up in Clark Summit? 

Dale: No. My sister went to Japan as a student when she was an undergraduate. And, um, my parents were somewhat, they had a lot of reservations because of course, you know, Japan was an enemy during the war, and, um, there's certain feelings that are hard to let go of, I think.

So they were sort of aghast that she was going to Japan, but, you know, they got used to the idea and center off with all good wishes. But even so, I never imagined that I, I would go as well. Certainly your father never would've [00:44:00] imagined such a thing, and yet his father, um, had an opportunity to go. His grandfather had an opportunity to go and for various reasons were not able to do so.

So it sort of felt like the third time was the charm. 

Marbree: Post Japan, you didn't go back to work as an accountant, you did other things. 

Dale: Yes. I initially joined the State Society of CPAs and took classes in order to keep my, my license active, and I looked around a little bit. But having been out of it for those three years, nearly three years, I just didn't feel that it was what I wanted to be doing anymore.

So eventually I let my, my license become inactive and I just got a job in a little retail shop, made some good friends, not longtime friends, but you know, those seasonal friends, if you use that cliche. And that was fun. I mean, it was just fun. And it was what used to be called pin money, 

Marbree: and that also gave you the freedom to go down and spend some of those cold winters with your parents.[00:45:00] 

In a warmer climate. 

Dale: Yes. Which I did regularly. And also I would visit my sister in New York. Um, I always did that at least once a year. 

Marbree: Do you miss, or did you at any point miss the intellectual stimulation of the accounting work? 

Dale: Not a lot, quite frankly. I've always been in a book group, even in places where I didn't know people initially.

I think I've been in at least eight book groups at least. And so that's always provided that stimulation. You know, people I met in that little shop in, um, St. Paul, I mean, I met one of the House of Representatives who's still in office and, you know, have had wonderful conversations with people like her and, and just any number of people who came in into the shop.

So, although the job itself was not intellectually stimulating, the environment could be, I mean it could also be dull. 

Marbree: As you look back, what have been the biggest challenges you've navigated? 

Dale: Certainly moving is always a challenge and those moves get harder and harder physically as well as as [00:46:00] emotionally.

You know, the one moving from when we sold the house in Colorado and we're definitely not coming back. That was a really hard one. By that time we were, we were pretty much finished in Japan. I mean, we knew we were going to Minnesota, so that was hard. So moving in general is challenging. It was always challenging trying to find a job.

As anyone knows, it's always difficult and being, you know, as somewhat. Shy, introverted person. Putting myself out there has always been challenging Going to graduate school. Yeah, there was that economics class that was a whole nother story was very challenging. So that was, yeah, that was challenging. And, and balancing that with, um, with children.

Marbree: What was challenging about this economics class? You 

Dale: bring up an economics topic and my eyes glaze over. To this very day. It can be something in the newspaper, it can be some economic thing your father brings up, and it's just like, I can't deal with economics. They're just concepts that. Make no sense to me.

And yet that's what my sister's concentration was. [00:47:00] So I had to take this basic economics course as part of my, um, master's program. And the teacher that was hired was well known for what his research and what he was written. He was, he was renowned and getting him to teach there was sort of a coup for the university, I believe, but he could not teach.

And the only thing that he, the grade was based on was the midterm and the final exam. Nothing else. There were no papers. There was no class participation. It was just he stood up in front and did his thing, and you took notes as best you could. Then the exam came the midterm exam, and when the grades came out, most of us either got D'S or flunked.

I failed and, and he just said, I recommend that you just drop the course, withdraw and move on. Well, that really got my dander up. I was paying for this. My sister came to the rescue and she helped me study over the course of two weekend days right before the final exam. And I do not know what grade I [00:48:00] got for the exam, but I got a C in the course.

And I have to say I'm as proud of that C as I am of the, the 100% a I got in my statistics class and I have to say in that exam between the two sections. So if there were 60 or 50 of us. There were only 12 who sat for that final exam. 

Marbree: Well done. 

Dale: I thank my sister. 

Marbree: As you look back, who would you say have been the handful of people that you think of as the most influential or important in your life?

Dale: Certainly my mother and grandmothers. We didn't talk much about my maternal grandmother, but she was also a strong role model. She worked for a pretty big company in New York City, you know, during my mother's childhood. And, um, eventually she and my grandfather had their own business in, uh, Rockville Center.

And she would visit, or they would visit sometimes they, after they retired and moved to Florida, they would spend the whole summer in, in Clark Summit with us. And she took me to New York one time, just the two of us. [00:49:00] So she had also as strong a. An influence on my life as my other grandmother. They were strong.

My aunts, both of my aunts, um, who were, you know, very successful women. One in a more prominent way, you know, in terms of who are the, have been important in my life. Certainly your father, and you and your brother. And I've been fortunate to have good friends over so many places in so many years. They've all been important.

Marbree: Can you remember over the years, any advice, words of wisdom, criticism, things that people have said to you that stuck, that just haven't left your head? 

Dale: You know, there are a handful of them. I mean, my mother was good at quoting things from her mother and grandmother. Things like a bunny face. That's a dish rag.

And uh, that was usually spoken to me when I wanted a new bit of clothing. You know, I don't have anything to wear. My great Aunt Ethel, she was just this lovely jolly woman and I remember one time she was a baker. I. I remember [00:50:00] one time we were having a conversation and I said, oh, I can't sing. And she said, well, of course you can.

Everyone can sing. And what she was really talking about was joy and celebration, or at least that's how I've sort of looked at it over my life. So that stuck for me from the time I was 11 years old. I remember my mother would say to me when I would sit on the couch and I had this really unladylike position that I felt very comfortable and she would walk by and she'd say, you know, position is everything in life.

So clearly that stuck with me. 

Marbree: Was there anyone in business? Work over the years. Who said anything? I mean, there was, you know, the comment about snotty nosed kids and reporting to them? 

Dale: Well, there was, yeah. Obviously the, the thing I mentioned about developing your own script and there was also a person who gave me some good advice, not in words per se, but in terms of perfecting my [00:51:00] calligraphic skills.

That was helpful. But no, I never really had. A mentor. You know, oddly, in some ways in terms of a mentor, there was a woman I worked for in San Francisco. She had a party planning business and she had, she was old San Francisco and so she knew, you know, the hearsts and you know, you name it, she knew people and so she had a pretty impressive client list and I started working.

With her to do wedding invitations and announcements and addressing them primarily, but that sort of thing. And she kind of took me under her wing for that brief time and that was, that was a good experience in terms of putting myself out there a little bit. And her partner, they weren't married. They would take us out for dinner and introduce us to people.

It was an interesting time. 

Marbree: Are there any decisions when you look back that at the time didn't seem like a big deal, but now you can see that they really were. 

Dale: Well, perhaps not switching to art school. [00:52:00] What kind of a difference that would've made? Who knows? But 

Marbree: if there were anything that you could change other than what we've already talked about, 

Dale: you know, not really.

I've had a good life. Um, your father and I have had some wonderful adventures. We've had good friends. Good fortune. Do I feel like I, my life is sort of scattered in terms of the things that I've done or accomplished. Absolutely. But by and large, it's been wonderful. 

Marbree: All right. My final question, if you had all the world's attention for up to one minute, what would you say that you would like people to take to heart?

Anyone can sing 

Dale: and we all should, you know, celebrate life when we can. Uh, work hard at the things that are important to us, but also cut yourself some slack. Have respect for others and yourself. Be kind to others and to yourself and. I suppose one of the things that you know, I wished I'd been is brave.

I feel like in my own life, I haven't been as brave as I could be. So be brave. [00:53:00] 

Marbree: A wonderful way to end this season of the words we've heard. Thank you. 

Dale: Thank you 

Marbree: for so many things.

Well mom, I hope we've captured a hint of who you are and a few of your words. Thank you for sitting down with me for the calligraphy on the cover art and for being you. This episode isn't the time for me to share the words of advice that have stuck with me, but I will say this, some of yours, mom, I turn to again and again.

So thank you. Oh, and for anyone wondering Yes, chat. GPT does have a system for adding columns of numbers using nines.

There is so much more of my mother's journey that I would love to share. Of course, I [00:54:00] could say that about many of this season's guests, and that's why next season I may. Play around with the format, sharing different voices on a theme, or splitting an episode between people who lived one experience and remember it differently.

Or maybe I'll carry on with the existing format or some combination of different options. If there's something you'd like to hear, a change you'd like made, or if you think everything is great as it is and should stay the same, please check the show notes. Find that link and weigh in. Who knows? Maybe I'll incorporate your ideas.

To those of you listening, thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed this, please leave a review in Spotify or Apple Podcasts and hit that follow button. These things help others find the podcast and they mean the world to me. Share this with anyone you think would love it or learn something from it and keep coming back from [00:55:00] more of the words we've heard.

This podcast would not be possible without the editing and production brilliance of Cori Orak, the inspiration of my parents at a 2001 conversation with my grandmother. My thanks to you all.

So what are the words we've heard? A bonnie face sets a dish rag. Cut yourself some slack. Everyone can sing. And we all should celebrate life when we can. Have respect for others and yourself. And two very simple, powerful words. Be brave.